The Church Revitalization Podcast – Episode 282

Note: This article was adapted from concepts in Chapter 8 of Developing a Vision for Ministry by Dr. Aubrey Malphurs.

In any organization committed to meaningful change, opposition is inevitable. This truth is particularly evident within ministry contexts, where resistance to new visions can come from both external critics and internal stakeholders. By examining historical and contemporary examples, we can better understand the nature of this opposition and develop strategies to address it effectively.

The Biblical Precedent: Nehemiah’s Experience

The biblical account of Nehemiah provides a powerful case study in visionary leadership amid opposition. When Nehemiah sought to rebuild Jerusalem’s walls, he faced determined resistance from Israel’s enemies including Sanballat, Tobiah, and Geshem (Nehemiah 2:19; 4:1-8). Their tactics were diverse and sophisticated:

• They employed ridicule to undermine confidence (Nehemiah 2:19; 4:1-6)
• They formed conspiracies to create fear and division (Nehemiah 4:7-10)
• They spread rumors to demoralize Nehemiah’s supporters (Nehemiah 4:11-12)

Yet perhaps more painful than these external threats was the resistance Nehemiah encountered from within his own community (Nehemiah 6:10-13). This pattern of both external and internal opposition continues to challenge ministry leaders today.

External vs. Internal Opposition

While external criticism can feel threatening, it often serves to galvanize supporters around the vision. Paradoxically, it can strengthen resolve and clarify purpose. Internal opposition, however, typically inflicts deeper wounds on leaders. When resistance comes from trusted colleagues or congregation members, it carries emotional and spiritual weight that can be particularly damaging to the visionary leader.

Understanding Opposition Archetypes

Those who resist vision within ministry organizations typically fall into three distinct categories, each with their own motivations and approaches:

Vision Vampires

Vision vampires—whether consciously or unconsciously—drain the lifeblood from new initiatives. Despite often being well-meaning Christians, they position themselves as defenders of orthodoxy against perceived threats. They conflate the status quo with doctrinal purity, mistakenly viewing proposed changes as theological drift.

These individuals rarely frame their opposition in explicit theological terms, yet their behavior reveals their underlying assumptions. They approach conflict with intense conviction, believing they’re safeguarding the faith rather than simply resisting change. Although they may lack scriptural justification for their concerns, they nonetheless engage in the debate with uncompromising fervor.

Their opposition is rooted in fundamental misunderstandings about what is theologically essential and what is actually strategic. These false beliefs, often grounded in good intentions, lead these vision vampires to go on offense. They feel as if they’re fighting for the faith, when in reality they are fighting for their preferences. Vision vampires may even be undermining the mission of the church: to make disciples, and not even realize they’re doing so.

Vision Vultures

Vision vultures operate with less theological intensity but similar determination. Rather than attacking the entire vision, they methodically pick it apart through persistent criticism of individual elements. Unlike vampires, they don’t question the theological foundations of new initiatives but instead resist the personal discomfort that change brings.

In church settings, these individuals have grown comfortable with familiar traditions—established seating arrangements, traditional music, conventional sermon styles—and experience genuine anxiety when faced with adjustments to these patterns. Their resistance typically manifests as a series of specific complaints: first about sermon style changes, then about musical selections, then about worship formats. This piecemeal criticism can continue indefinitely, gradually undermining enthusiasm for the vision.

Unlike vision vampires who attempt to drain the entire vision of its vitality, vision vultures employ a more methodical approach. They meticulously dissect the vision component by component, constantly searching for weaknesses or inconsistencies to exploit. Their strategy relies on preserving the status quo through persistent, targeted criticism rather than outright rejection. While vision vultures may lack the theological dogmatism of their vampire counterparts, their relentless nitpicking often proves more frustrating for visionary leaders. The cumulative effect of their numerous small objections can gradually erode enthusiasm and momentum for change, making them particularly challenging opponents despite their less confrontational demeanor.

Vision Firemen

Vision firemen occupy formal leadership positions but function primarily as managers rather than true leaders. When presented with innovative ideas, their instinct is to extinguish them quickly, prioritizing stability over transformation. Though ideally positioned to ignite positive change, they instead direct their energy toward maintaining the status quo.

These individuals fundamentally misunderstand the distinction between leadership and management. While effective management produces consistent results, transformative leadership necessarily involves change and calculated risk. Vision firemen frequently cite 1 Corinthians 14:40 (“Let all things be done decently and in order”) to justify their resistance, without recognizing that orderly processes can still accommodate meaningful innovation.

Their elevated positions within organizational hierarchies amplify their impact, creating a chilling effect on creative thinking throughout the ministry. Their institutional authority can effectively silence new ideas before they gain traction.

Moving Forward: Responding to Opposition

Understanding these different forms of resistance represents an essential first step in addressing them effectively. Visionary leaders must recognize that opposition often stems from deep-seated fears rather than malicious intent. Creating safe spaces for honest dialogue about these concerns can transform potential adversaries into allies.

Furthermore, leaders should anticipate resistance as a natural part of the change process rather than being surprised or discouraged by it. By documenting both the biblical and practical rationales for new initiatives, leaders can address theological concerns while demonstrating thoughtful stewardship.

Perhaps most importantly, visionary leaders must maintain spiritual and emotional resilience in the face of opposition. This requires cultivating supportive relationships with like-minded individuals who can provide encouragement during difficult seasons, while remaining open to constructive criticism that might actually improve the vision.

Conclusion

Opposition to visionary leadership in ministry settings is inevitable, but it need not be fatal to meaningful change. By understanding the distinct motivations of vision vampires, vision vultures, and vision firemen, leaders can develop targeted strategies for addressing resistance while staying focused on their God-given mission. Like Nehemiah, today’s visionary leaders can persevere through opposition to accomplish significant work—not by avoiding conflict, but by navigating it wisely.

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Church Revitalization Podcast Transcript:

A.J. Mathieu [00:00:00]:
Who is blocking your ministry vision? We’re talking about a few different options today on the Church Revitalization Podcast.

Introduction [00:00:09]:
Hello, and welcome to the Church Revitalization Podcast brought to you by the Malphurs Group team, where each week we tackle important, actionable topics to help churches thrive. And now, here’s your hosts, Scott Ball and A.J. Mathieu.

Scott Ball [00:00:27]:
Welcome to the Church Revitalization podcast. My name is Scott Ball. I’m joined by my friend and cohost A.J. Mathieu. Round of applause.

A.J. Mathieu [00:00:36]:
We’ll put that in later.

Scott Ball [00:00:38]:
Yeah. We won’t. But, but hopefully, you as you’re driving or you’re listening, you’re sitting there at your computer. Just give a little clap for my friend, A.J.. Alright. Today, we’re talking about who’s blocking your ministry vision. And, I guess from the very top, let me give let me give props to the founder of our organization, doctor Aubrey Balfour. He’s with the lord now, but, he first wrote this book, Developing a Vision for Ministry, all the way back in 1992, if you can believe it.

Scott Ball [00:01:13]:
And then it went through three editions. So this this latest version, I think, came out in what was it, A.J.? Twenty Twenty fifteen. Twenty fifteen. So so I mean, that’s got ten years on it, but it’s a great it’s a great, read. It holds up really well. And, the inspiration for today’s article and podcast, episode comes from chapter eight, the the final chapter, which is about preserving the vision. This is this is a, this is a challenge, in the in the church when you I think we think that we do all this hard work. We put the team together.

Scott Ball [00:01:52]:
We have the meetings. We get everything kind of arranged and written up, and we start presenting it. And there’s maybe even some initial excitement about the future of the church and where things are going. And then some people start trying to to block the vision, and you can start to get discouraged. And so today, we’re gonna be walking through the three kind of arc archetypes of people who are likely going to be in the way. But maybe before we dive into that, A.J., I think maybe let’s take a step back for a second and look at a biblical example of this. We see this in scripture. And when there’s a vision presented, sometimes there’s some resistance.

A.J. Mathieu [00:02:34]:
Yeah. For sure. This is a well, it’s a book near and dear to your heart, I know, Scott. The book of Nehemiah, and it’s been brought up on the podcast numerous times, but for good reason. I think there’s so many great parallels, you know, between church revitalization and the work

Introduction [00:02:48]:
of, you know, of rebuilding Jerusalem, the walls and and the city and

A.J. Mathieu [00:02:49]:
the people and, you Aubrey hearkens back also to Nehemiah in this in that, you know, he comes he comes back on the scene, returns to Jerusalem, you know, with this vision, to rebuild the walls and is met with opposition, both internally and externally, meaning the, you know, the the remnant there of of the Israelites, the the Jews, and the people outside, you know, the beyond Jerusalem that didn’t wanna see those walls get built either. You know, I don’t know. Scott, you think the internal opposition came as a surprise to Nehemiah? Was he did he figure I’m I’m marching in? I got, I got the power of the king behind me. Everybody’s gonna welcome me with open arms, and this is just gonna go swimmingly, or do you think he anticipated, internal opposition?

Introduction [00:03:47]:
You

Scott Ball [00:03:47]:
know, I don’t know. I can’t I have no idea what he was thinking necessarily, but, you need you have to remember for Nehemiah that the problem that he’s seeking to resolve is a problem that had existed for a hundred years. Yeah. And you don’t one does not resolve an entrenched hundred year problem in as few days as he does without encountering resistance. Because whenever you have a problem like that, then there’s probably an entrenched bureaucracy. There’s a reason why the problem hasn’t been solved.

A.J. Mathieu [00:04:27]:
That’s a great point.

Scott Ball [00:04:29]:
And the problem is is usually people, and not and not the the problem itself.

A.J. Mathieu [00:04:36]:
Yeah. Man, you know what? Okay. This is a great point because it’s it is with frequency. We get a call from a pastor, maybe some other leader in the church. We have a conversation about what are the options for revitalization. Give give them some good information. They take it back to, you know, a meeting or a series of meetings, and then the conclusion becomes, we think we can do this ourselves. And, you have to ask, and you and I offline ask each other this whenever we come across this.

A.J. Mathieu [00:05:04]:
If you think you can do it now, how come you haven’t done it prior to now? And there that’s me and my situation. We got a hundred years of the walls, being down, and there’s a reason. And it’s because there was people there that didn’t want to or had other excuses for it just like commonly in the church.

Scott Ball [00:05:22]:
And even some legitimate reasons, like, I mean, the political you know, when they’re when they’re under Babylon

Introduction [00:05:29]:
Yeah.

Scott Ball [00:05:29]:
You know, then well, first of all, when they’re under Babylon, basically, no one is living there at at that point, anyway, who who is Jewish. It’s only when when Persia allows them to start coming back that they start coming back. So I guess to be to be generous, this is a problem that they had the potential of solving for maybe only thirty years or something like that. So it’s but it’s still a decades long problem at this point. Yeah. It could have been resolved. They’ve they’ve started rebuilding the temple and so on. So, I mean, they’ve it isn’t like they hadn’t done anything, but the walls themselves are are in ruins.

Scott Ball [00:06:09]:
And and, yeah, you’re right that you have Nehemiah who is he’s he’s an outsider in that he’s never lived in Jerusalem, but he’s an insider in that he is is part of the the family, so to speak, as as a Jew. Yeah. And so he’s like, it’s it’s this it’s time. It’s time to solve this problem. You know, we don’t need

Introduction [00:06:28]:
to we don’t need to get

Scott Ball [00:06:28]:
into all this. You know, a lot of the people a lot of the criticism that he’s getting is that people were accusing him of self dealing. Well, you’re just in this for you. And he’s, and he’s like, wait, what? You know, far be it. Like, that’s not, I’m not in this for, I’m not in this for me. You know? And in fact, he, the the allowance that he was supposed to be getting as the governor, he uses to to feed the people, and his assistance and so on. Like, he’s he’s not making he’s not making money, doing this.

A.J. Mathieu [00:07:01]:
And so common argument even in modern political landscapes that, you’re saying you’re here to do something for us, but we think you really are just doing this for yourself.

Scott Ball [00:07:10]:
Doing this for yourself. Yeah. Yeah. And and, you know, to be fair, we we I I don’t know that people say this directly to our faces, but I think one of the challenges in the kind of work that we do, especially since, you know, we we have things like the Healthy Church Toolkit, and there’s fees associated with registering for that if you you’re if you’re inside North America, you know, or the work that we do in consulting with churches, there’s fees associated with that. People don’t have to shop too much to realize that our fees are as as low as anybody’s that you would encounter except maybe a denomination that’s offering something for free. We can’t do things entirely for free. But, you know, you get accused of, well, you’re just trying to make you’re just trying to make a buck. And that isn’t we we wanna feed our families.

Scott Ball [00:07:52]:
You know, we have an obligation to our families. Yeah. That isn’t our motivation. The we do things all the time for people for at for at no cost and or no. We’re not bragging about that. We’re just I’m just saying, you know, these kinds of things can cut deep. I can I can I can, I’m not comparing myself to Nehemiah? He’s he’s a leader I look up to immensely. But I can relate a little bit in going, well, hold on a minute.

Scott Ball [00:08:16]:
That those kinds of accusations hurt when you when you hear someone say, you’re just doing this for the money because you go home. Well, no. I wanted to go make money. There would be better ways to make money. Yeah. That’s that’s not that isn’t a motivation for us.

A.J. Mathieu [00:08:29]:
Yeah. Yeah. Well yeah. There’s a there’s a lot of things in in the church in which people get paid to do them. And so if if that’s your position, anybody doing anything in the church is only doing it for the money, then I don’t know. See how many pastors we have if they’re not compensated, see how many, you know, other leaders

Scott Ball [00:08:47]:
we have. We have to go down

A.J. Mathieu [00:08:49]:
that path.

Scott Ball [00:08:49]:
Was just saying, like, I I mean, but it’s it’s related in the sense that,

Introduction [00:08:56]:
yeah,

Scott Ball [00:08:56]:
I mean, I guess we’re kinda getting to the heart of the matter. We’re we’re gonna get into these archetypes because that’s the the heart of this, episode. But, you know, I think that this is the this is the challenge, actually. We we’re touching on even in our own little corner of of this is that when people come and attack, you it’s easy to feel defensive and go, well, hold on. And that’s not, you’re attacking my motivations, and you don’t know what my motivations are. Yeah. I can say it. I can say that’s not that’s not my motivation, but you could go, well, then well, then why do you charge money for anything at all? I go, well, because, you know, I don’t know.

Scott Ball [00:09:29]:
I got I got a I got a mortgage payment. That’s that’s why. Yeah. Like like, my my my bank doesn’t take hopes and dreams and aspirations as a form of payment, and good intentions. So, that doesn’t make me motivated by money. Anyways, I I think that but and and extrapolate that out. So whatever when we when you talk about division in your church, you wanna change something, you wanna do something different. God’s given a bold vision for the future of your church, and someone says something about you that hurts you.

Scott Ball [00:10:01]:
Well, you know, they accuse your theological positions or they accuse you just wanna become a celebrity pastor or, you know, this is all about your ego or you’re a narcissist or whatever it might be. It’s easy to go, well, hold on a minute. You don’t that’s not that’s not my motivation. That’s not why I’m doing this. I’m not doing this so that we become the coolest church in town. I’m doing this so that we can reach the lost. Like, it’s, you know, it’s easy to get caught in that trap of feeling defensive about what your motivations are. And and Nehemiah does this.

Introduction [00:10:31]:
That’s

Scott Ball [00:10:31]:
why the book actually is I’m sorry. I’m getting sidetracked on this. But the book’s a prayer. You know, it’s a prayer journal. Nehemiah’s like, search my heart, Lord. He he’s he’s it’s an invitation. Lord, if there’s if you see any imputable offense, please show me. You know, reveal to me any motive I might have that’s impure.

Scott Ball [00:10:53]:
Yeah. Anyway so

A.J. Mathieu [00:10:55]:
I think one more, excuse me, one more setup, before we jump into these three archetypes that that Aubrey had in there that I think is just really important to keep in mind as well in the external versus internal opposition. External opposition to our vision is often a motivator. You know? Like Mhmm. People on the outside going, ah, that’s crazy. You know, that sometimes with that that particular visionary leader and the people that are in support of that vision are like, well, we’ll show them, you know, when we we unify, we get to work, we work hard, you know, to prove them wrong. It’s a it can be a motivator. Whereas the internal opposition can have a much more damaging effect. It well, it almost always has a more damaging effect.

A.J. Mathieu [00:11:39]:
Because now you might be getting people that are opposing you that you thought were close to you. You know? I mean, something you’re excited about. Hey. I’ve got this great thing. I think the Lord’s wanting to do it. And you expect from them also excitement and motivation, and instead you get opposition. That can really cut deep. And, and I you know, we experience this in various parts of life even.

A.J. Mathieu [00:12:01]:
You know? I mean, with our family, with our friends, you know, you you, when you have an expectation for something and it turns out to not be that way, you’re like, oh my gosh. That’s it’s demotivating. Yes. And so I think these are really important things to keep in mind as we, you know, especially for you listening, you’re thinking about, you know, maybe trying to present vision to your church and and work on a revitalization effort. It’s it’s just good to have these things in mind and be prepared, and perhaps even be able to understand the people around you that you’re gonna need to be a part of it prior to this. You know? I think because then you can manage maybe expectations properly and, and even strategies going forward. So with that, Scott, let’s jump into our three, kind of, archetypes for vision blockers.

Scott Ball [00:12:53]:
Yeah. Okay. So our first one is a vision vampire. Let me just pause briefly and say these terms came from Aubrey, and I love them. I love I love them, and it makes me miss them. I’m like, this

A.J. Mathieu [00:13:06]:
is It is good stuff.

Scott Ball [00:13:07]:
Classic classic Aubrey Malthers, and, yeah, we miss you. So, vision vampires vision vampires, consciously or unconsciously, they drain the light. They’re just sucking the blood out of a new vision. They hear something new that the church wants to do, a different direction, a fresh direction, and they can’t wait to sink their teeth into it and just suck it dry. Usually, a vision vampire, though, has some sort of principled motivation. They see the vision as an attack on something fundamental to the existence of the church. And I think the the point that’s worth remembering here is that vision vampires are are often well intentioned in that they they see themselves as defenders of the faith, and they don’t have a clear understanding on the difference between something that is essential and something that is pref preferential, just their preferences versus something that’s, you know, truly rooted in scripture. So maybe it would be best to think of an example.

Scott Ball [00:14:12]:
This is a common one that I see pop up in lots of churches, and that would be moving to two services. So if a church is growing and they’re like, we need to go to two services to accommodate the space, It does not take long for a vision vampire to to crop up. Sometimes they’re even on staff or they’re on the board, and they go, we can’t do that. We can’t do that because if we do that, we’re not one church anymore. We’re actually two churches, and they have this fundamental belief that it’s not possible to have a healthy church that has two services, that it will somehow break the fellowship or cause disunity. And I often point out that if you get in a big enough room, you don’t know everybody in there anyway. I mean, that’s usually the argument. Right, A.J.? That, well, you know, everyone won’t know everybody.

Scott Ball [00:14:57]:
Everybody already doesn’t know everybody. So what’s what’s the difference? But, you know, they they think that they’re fighting for something biblical, not just it’s their preference.

A.J. Mathieu [00:15:09]:
Yeah. Yeah. I had that. You just reminded me. I’ve mentioned this on the podcast before. I had, I think he was an elder in a church, but definitely a high level leader who really wanted the pastor to know, everybody by name and face. I mean, just to memorize the congregation. And, and I think that’s kind of what you’re what you’re thinking.

A.J. Mathieu [00:15:31]:
You know? And I think for him, that was like, this is our chief shepherd, and he has to know the sheep. And, and if he doesn’t, then he’s not able to do, you know, this foundational function of the ministry. So I think, again, it was it was a well intentioned, though not well thought out, you know, opposition, I believe, you know, when faced with the question of what would that number be then, how many do you think is reasonable for somebody to memorize, you know, there was no he had no clear answer for that. But, but I think that’s kind of along the same lines, as what you’re speaking of.

Scott Ball [00:16:06]:
Yeah. Absolutely. So, you know, I think, that’s that’s definitely the first one is this vision vampire, and and the the hallmark of these are people who believe that they’re fighting for something fundamental, and that’s why they view it as as a compulsion. They they have to kill this thing, because if they don’t, then they’re not standing up to it. So the solution to this obviously is maybe addressing their core concern

A.J. Mathieu [00:16:33]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Scott Ball [00:16:34]:
Pastorally and go, hey. I think that we might be coming at this from different perspectives. You know, we’re moving to two services because we don’t we don’t think it’d be a good good stewardship for us to build a new, you know, sanctuary that can seat all of us. We don’t think it would be honoring to the Lord to put an artificial cap on the number of people that we can should reach. And we’re not in a position to plant a church tomorrow. And so in this season, as the Lord is blessing us, the solution that we’ve seen to be able to accommodate the growth and to continue to reaching people with the good news, because two thirds of the people in our community are perishing without the Lord, is for us to add additional service so that more people can grow in the gospel. Now what questions do you have about that, or what concerns do you have about that, and how can we address them? And, you know, they go, well, I just don’t think it’ll be the same. I just don’t think that we’re gonna you know? Then deal with that and go, well, it sounds like you’re having a nostalgia feeling as to you know, versus what’s your theological arm argument, and what is your solution? What would you see the church do? How would you address this challenge? And let them talk it through, and they may eventually come around to it.

Scott Ball [00:17:46]:
But you you need don’t just argue with them, present the case. And if you’ve got someone who’s totally intransigent, you gotta you gotta hang in there. You can’t just go, okay. Alright. Yeah. I mean, and just fold. You can’t you can’t let go of the vision because there’s some criticism. So

A.J. Mathieu [00:18:04]:
Yeah.

Scott Ball [00:18:05]:
You gotta hang tough.

A.J. Mathieu [00:18:06]:
Yeah. Yeah. Alright. So our second, vision blocker is, another good double v word here, vision vulture. So we had vision vampires sucking the lifeblood out. Now we’ve got vision vultures. And what is, what’s the MO of the vulture? Well, it’s to, it’s to find something available and pick it apart, just dig in there and and see what you can what you can get out of it. And I think that’s another really good good example here of people that we encounter in the church that they hear of the vision, and their first inclination is just to get into, maybe even at that level, even some unnecessary details, but just bring it up.

A.J. Mathieu [00:18:47]:
Well, what would not work about that? What’s wrong with that? What are the the small things that would go against what we normally do? And, I mean, this is one for sure we can all imagine somebody in our mind that, that we work with or are a part of our church that, that are just picking at everything.

Introduction [00:19:09]:
I don’t

A.J. Mathieu [00:19:09]:
know what their, you know, their main motivator is. I think that would vary on this type of person’s. Could they do they necessarily want to halt the vision, or do they is this a plea sometimes, you know, to be able to contribute to it? You know? Like, I’m gonna let me attack that piece because I have something different that I think would work better in there. So I think there’s a variety of underlying motivators for the vision vulture. But regardless, they can if if not, you know, totally squash something, they can be great distractions.

Scott Ball [00:19:45]:
Yeah. Yeah. I think you’re right that they might have different sets of motivations. I mean, some people could just have a critical spirit. Some people could be, you know, just not like the leader. And so they they wanna they take every opportunity they can to just be to be critical because they don’t like that person. Sometimes they really do like their preference and, you know, they really are defenders of the status quo and they they, you know, they know they don’t have a theological argument. They they’re not they’re not opposing it in on principle.

Scott Ball [00:20:20]:
They’re just opposing it because they don’t wanna see something be different.

A.J. Mathieu [00:20:24]:
Yeah. More on the practice, perhaps. Yeah.

Scott Ball [00:20:26]:
That’s right. So, I mean, but you can’t read you can’t judge someone’s heart, you know? So I don’t know. And it depends. There there are a lot of different kinds of vision vultures and what their motivations might be, but the practical reality of a vision vulture is that they just they pick. Why are we doing that? I mean, this and I think, honestly, I’d take I’d take a vision vampire over a vision vulture every day because at least a vision vampire has a perspective that they’re trying to defend, and you you can maybe win them over maybe. If you, you know, if they start to be coached along, so to speak, or developed or discipled into a different and better understanding of of the word, whereas a a vision vulture is just picking. Well, even a vision vampire, if they were to ultimately just disagree and say, I just disagree. Like, I can’t, and I can’t get past this.

Scott Ball [00:21:19]:
It’d be easier for for that person probably to part ways and go, I think I probably just need to find a different church. As much as you don’t want that, that’s an easier conversation because they’re going, well, we’re at an impasse. Like, I Yeah. Have this conviction, and the church is going a different way, and I just don’t agree.

A.J. Mathieu [00:21:35]:
I wonder if they

Scott Ball [00:21:36]:
But vision vulture isn’t that. They’re just they’re just picking.

Introduction [00:21:39]:
Yeah.

Scott Ball [00:21:39]:
You know, they’re like and you can never you it’s hard to say, I think this isn’t the right place for you. Why? Because they disagreed about, you know, the color of the carpet or what song you’re saying. That’s it’s that’s too petty of a reason to dismiss them, but they’re way more annoying than a vampire.

A.J. Mathieu [00:21:55]:
Yeah. Vision vampires are probably the more likely people behind church splits, perhaps, because they’re able to make a theological argument. And Yeah. Depending on their level of of, I don’t know, leadership or, you know, influence. They might be able to rally together. They’ve got a solid enough sounding argument to rally enough people together, to to move that direction or to even stop something. Whereas the vulture is probably probably not a significant number of people who are gonna take their picking seriously enough or find it compelling enough to wanna lock arms with them over it.

Scott Ball [00:22:35]:
Maybe I’ll defend the vampires and, you know, we’re using this in a in a derogatory way because we’re assuming that your vision is healthy and biblical. Yeah. Right? Maybe the vampire’s right. If you if you’ve got a vision that’s unholy

Introduction [00:22:49]:
Yeah.

Scott Ball [00:22:49]:
They might be right, and they may be totally justified in That correct. If they have a resistance. So maybe maybe assume we’re talking about you’ve got a vision that is healthy and biblical, and you’ve used our processes to make sure that it is you know, you’re not you’re not taking the church in a direction that really is, you know, out of step with the word. But so I’ll defend I’ll defend maybe some vampires. Depending on the person listening, they might they might think they got a vampire, but that person might

A.J. Mathieu [00:23:15]:
be right. Well, sure. Yeah. Yeah. And there’s there’s no

Scott Ball [00:23:18]:
too specific. But if you’re if you’re taking if you’re leading your church off the rails Yeah. Getting away from biblical truth, you know, the authority of scripture, they’re right, and you should listen to it.

A.J. Mathieu [00:23:30]:
If you are that type of visionary leader and you have made sure that there’s not a close circle of accountability around you, there’s a chance you might need a vampire in your life to derail you. Yeah. Yeah.

Scott Ball [00:23:45]:
But but we’re we’re making an assumption here in this episode that that the plans you have are in alignment with, you know, God’s word and his authority.

A.J. Mathieu [00:23:54]:
But Okay. Alright. Well, hit us with our our third, blocker.

Scott Ball [00:23:59]:
Our third one, I I think this is an interest you know, A.J. was hoping that Aubrey would have come up with another v. Oh. But this is, these are vision firemen. And I think that this is an interesting one. So hear me out because I think it requires a little bit of explanation. Aubrey defines a vision fireman as a person who essentially exists to prevent fires from from starting and spreading. But when you’re talking about doing something new and doing something visionary, it often requires a little bit of destruction in order for there to be some construction. You know, you have to maybe clear some dead wood out.

Scott Ball [00:24:38]:
You have to, you know, get rid of kill off some old practices or, you know, sunset some ministries that aren’t effective anymore. And so you have there has to almost be a a bit of a controlled burn, to certain aspects of the ministry in order for there to be healthy growth in the future. And vision firemen are the kinds of people who they’re not gonna start the fire, and they’re not going to want to stick around and see the fire happen. They wanna put it out. Yeah. So they are they are the guardians of the gate. They are the defenders of the status quo.

A.J. Mathieu [00:25:14]:
Preservationists.

Scott Ball [00:25:16]:
They’re preservationists. They’ll say, look. You know, first Corinthians fourteen forty says, let all things be done decently and in order. And so when they see when they see anything that they perceive as chaos and and change is often a little bit chaotic on the front end when you don’t have that certainty and of practice and so on. They just don’t like that. They just don’t like the change, and they are afraid of the chaos that that might sow. So it isn’t that they have a it isn’t that they have a principled objection to the change. It isn’t that they are merely being critical.

Scott Ball [00:25:50]:
They see themselves as preventers of chaos and preserve preservers of order. And so these these are these are people who are like seas on the, on the disc. They’re very conscientious and, you know, they, they wanna see the timeline and the process and the budget. And they’re just very concerned that people might be upset or it might, you know, turn things over a little bit. So, these are okay, folks. I think that, these are all

A.J. Mathieu [00:26:17]:
malicious intent.

Scott Ball [00:26:17]:
Probably not malicious intent. But these are the people that you actually need to win over because they are ordered, because they are organized, because they’re typically good managers. You want to win over those stakeholders because they can be advocates for you if they understand it. And they might be able to help actually execute a vision effectively.

Introduction [00:26:40]:
Yeah.

Scott Ball [00:26:40]:
So these are managers. They are usually leaders, but they’re they don’t have a leadership skill. They have more of a manager type skill. So you you wanna win these folks over early. Know who they are and win them over so they can help you rather than stand in your way and be preventing you from moving forward in the vision.

A.J. Mathieu [00:26:56]:
Yeah. Yep. For sure. So I think some of the key takeaways here is, you know, have an understanding of these types of opposition that you’ll run into, and then kinda be prepared for it. Anticipate it, so that when it happens, you can go, I I kinda thought that. And and, you know, if you’ve been at your church for a while, maybe speaking to you pastor, you’re gonna know already a lot of these potential, blockers. And so, you know, considering these things ahead of time is gonna give you a more measured response, thoughtful, prayerful response to that. But the last, you know, the last piece kind of in responding to this also that’s maybe most important, again, assuming you you’re a healthy leader, you have a healthy vision, is resilience, that you work through it, you know, systematically, methodically with with the opposition and and stay strong in presenting and working towards division.

A.J. Mathieu [00:27:56]:
Also assuming that you do have, you know, a pretty good majority. You know? I mean, most of the people are like, yeah. We like this. And this is an area of church revitalization that is a common failure point, is the lack of resilience and the the falling back, turning back towards, you know, the old ways in the face of opposition. So it’s a really important aspect of revitalization.

Scott Ball [00:28:20]:
Yeah. I I wanna, maybe wrap up by just encouraging you this way and and encouraging you the way that that, how Nehemiah dealt with it. And, and and Aubrey kind of echoes this a little bit in in the book in chapter eight. But he talks about remembering God’s past, present, and future goodness, his provision, his presence and his provision. And this is what Nehemiah does. So when Nehemiah goes to the people, he says, you see the trouble we’re in, and God has provided for us. God has his hand is on us. Therefore, we need to strengthen our hands to do the good work.

Scott Ball [00:29:03]:
And then and then the inevitable thing happens literally in the next verse is that he starts to get this criticism from from a Sanballat the Horonite to buy the Ammonite official and Geshem the Arab. So these are this is external opposition, but opposition nonetheless. They accuse him. They stand, and they’re accusing his, motivations and after and so on. Make some accusations. And then I love his response. This is why I wanted to end with this, A.J., because the boldness and the clarity of this statement, Nehemiah says, the god of heaven will give us success. We, his servants, will start rebuilding.

Scott Ball [00:29:42]:
But as for you, you have no share in Jerusalem or any claim or historic right to it. He just shuts it down. He says, god will give us success. So he’s already from the beginning. It’s not about us. It’s not about our skills. It’s not about what we have. You know, their accusation against him is that there is a political one.

Scott Ball [00:30:03]:
You know, you’re are you opposing the king? And and immediately, he doesn’t address that. He go he appeals straight to the lord and says, no. The lord is his hand is on us. He’s providing for us. His presence is here. His power is here. His provision is here. And then he says what we’re going to do.

Scott Ball [00:30:21]:
We, his servants, will start rebuilding. Not, you know, well, we’re still evaluating things. Don’t don’t feel like you need to equivocate. Don’t feel like, well, I gotta give it to them. You don’t. You can say we are moving forward in this vision. Yeah. And then to those who who not to the people who just need some convincing, but to the people who truly stand opposed to you in an unholy way, you can say you have no share in this vision.

Scott Ball [00:30:49]:
And Who? Mean Yeah. And it and it works, and it’s bold, and it’s difficult, but you have to hang tough. Don’t don’t capitulate. Don’t give in. Hang

A.J. Mathieu [00:31:01]:
tough. That also reminds me of, is it Isaiah 43? See, I’m doing a new thing? Isn’t that where that is?

Scott Ball [00:31:07]:
Is it, yeah, 42 or 43 somewhere? Yeah.

A.J. Mathieu [00:31:09]:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it’s there’s a remembrance. You know? Remember who I am. Remember what I’ve done for you, And then forget the former thing. See, I’m doing a new thing. Do you not perceive it? Kinda parallels that as well that, yeah, there’s a there’s a vision. Good stuff, man.

A.J. Mathieu [00:31:25]:
Yeah. If you’re feeling this in your church, you know, as a leader, you’re like, here’s just this is not where we’re supposed to be. I I really feel like God’s calling us to more than, we would love to hear from you and talk with you about that and, work with you to to forge a path forward in that. This is this is what we do all day every day. We love seeing that. So definitely, reach out to us. Just go to malpersgroup.com. You can contact us there on the website.

A.J. Mathieu [00:31:51]:
Yep. Yeah. And today’s article is gonna be in the link below, in your podcast app or on YouTube if you’re watching over there. So click over there. Read today’s, show notes, and, yeah. And, again, reach out to us, because we’d love to talk with you about any, any seeds of vision that are that are, starting to pop up there in your ministry. Yeah. While you’re over there, hey.

A.J. Mathieu [00:32:14]:
We didn’t I don’t know if we even mentioned it, but sign up for the toolkit. Tool it’s a great resource for your church, and, and there’s some amazing tools in there that can, help you save time, can bring people together to to grow together. So check out check out the toolkit while you’re there. There’s a button there’s an obvious button. You’ll see it.

Scott Ball [00:32:34]:
You’ll see it. Thanks for

A.J. Mathieu [00:32:35]:
being with us. We will, see you again next week on the Church Revitalization podcast.