The Church Revitalization Podcast – Episode 288

If you’ve ever spoken with pastors about church attendance, you’ve likely heard a familiar line: “Only about half of our people show up on any given Sunday.” It’s a phrase tossed around so often, it’s almost taken as gospel truth. But is it really accurate? Or is it just a convenient way to explain away a vague understanding of who’s in the room each week?

For many churches, the gap between perception and reality is wider than you might think. Pastors often rely on gut feelings or outdated assumptions rather than real data. But in an era where nearly every aspect of ministry can be measured and optimized, why settle for guesswork when it comes to the most basic question: who’s actually here?

Understanding who actually attends your church—and how often—is more than a numbers game. It’s about faithful stewardship. It’s about knowing your flock so you can shepherd them well. And it’s about being honest with yourself so you can lead your church with clarity and intentionality.

The Myth: “Half the Church is Missing Every Week”

Many pastors share the sentiment that about half their congregation is absent on any given Sunday, rotating attendance like clockwork. But where does this perception come from? It often stems from national surveys that blur the lines between self-identified Christians and actual committed church members. For instance, Gallup’s 2023 data shows that just 31% of U.S. adults reported attending religious services weekly or nearly weekly—a significant drop from 42% in 2008. Similarly, Barna’s research highlights that church attendance among practicing Christians has become more irregular, particularly post-pandemic.

However, these reports focus broadly on the general population and often fail to distinguish between cultural Christians and those who are genuinely engaged in a local church. When you narrow the scope to those actively involved in church life, the picture looks quite different. For example, data collected from over 1,800 engaged church members through the Malphurs Group’s Church Ministry Analysis surveys revealed that more than 90% of participants attend at least three out of four Sundays, with only 4.7% attending every other week, and fewer than 1% attending once a month.

This suggests that while occasional attenders do exist, they likely represent a smaller slice of your church than you might assume. The widely cited “half the church is gone every week” claim doesn’t hold up under closer scrutiny. Instead, the majority of regular churchgoers show consistent patterns of attendance, and the idea of week-on/week-off rotation is more myth than reality.

Why It Matters: Shepherding Requires Knowing Your Sheep

Why does accurate attendance data matter? Because churches are in the business of discipling people—not managing crowds. Each individual represents a soul with a story, a need, and a place in the body of Christ. Effective ministry depends on having clarity about who is present, who is slipping away, and who might be quietly faithful without being fully known.

Take, for example, those who attend only once a month or less. Without clear data, they can easily be written off as disengaged or lost in the shuffle. But knowing who these individuals are opens the door to intentional follow-up. A simple text, a coffee meeting, or an invitation to a small group could make the difference in their trajectory.

Then there are those who attend nearly every Sunday but never take a step beyond the worship service. These folks can be some of the most overlooked. Because they aren’t absent, they don’t raise any red flags—yet they might still feel disconnected or unsure about how to get involved. When church leaders identify these individuals through reliable attendance patterns, they can have personal conversations to invite them into deeper community and greater purpose.

Finally, data can confirm who your core members truly are. Most pastors have a general sense of who is deeply committed, but data helps you avoid blind spots. Someone who rarely speaks up or volunteers may still be faithfully present week after week. Accurate information ensures that these consistent but quiet contributors are seen and valued.

When pastors and leaders rely on guesswork, they risk missing real opportunities for shepherding. Accurate attendance data helps you minister with precision, offer care where it’s most needed, and celebrate the often unnoticed faithfulness in your church. In short, good information is a vital part of good pastoring.

How You Can Know: Practical Steps for Accurate Data

Improving attendance data doesn’t have to be overwhelming, but it does require intentional effort and a willingness to rethink some systems. One of the most accessible strategies is to utilize small groups and Sunday school classes as natural entry points for tracking. These environments often involve more personal interaction, making it easier for group leaders to observe attendance trends. Regular check-ins in these settings can provide leadership with reliable, grassroots data on who is actively involved beyond Sunday mornings.

Children’s ministry can also serve as a valuable indicator of broader family attendance. When parents check their kids into children’s programs, it offers an indirect but telling signal that those adults are also present. This kind of data may not be perfect, but it can help churches identify patterns and consistencies, especially when cross-referenced with other attendance inputs.

For churches ready to take a more systematic approach, digital check-in systems like Planning Center can be incredibly helpful. These tools not only allow members to check in seamlessly but also offer backend analytics that make tracking trends and follow-up more efficient. Rather than relying on usher headcounts or visual estimates, these platforms can give a precise read on who was present and when.

Some churches may choose to explore more tech-forward methods like Wi-Fi Presence analytics. These tools detect when a device previously connected to the church Wi-Fi returns to the building, allowing for passive, automated attendance tracking. While not suitable for every context, it can be a useful, low-effort solution for churches that prioritize seamless engagement and already have digital infrastructure in place. Of course, any use of technology must be weighed against the cultural sensitivities of the congregation, especially regarding privacy.

Ultimately, whether through manual logs, digital tools, or creative hybrid systems, what matters most is not the sophistication of the method but the consistency of its use. Reliable data equips pastors to lead with clarity, ensuring that no one slips through the cracks due to inattention or assumption.

The Value of Intentional Ministry

At its core, knowing exactly who attends your church each week empowers you to shepherd effectively. It equips leaders to disciple strategically, minister compassionately, and cultivate community intentionally. Moving beyond assumptions to accurate, actionable information helps you fulfill your mission more faithfully, ensuring no individual is overlooked.

So, the next time someone asks, “How big is your church?” you’ll be prepared—not with a vague estimate, but with clear confidence in knowing the people you are called to shepherd.

Watch this episode on YouTube!

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Episode Transcript:

A.J. Mathieu [00:00:00]:
Don’t know, Scott. I don’t know if pastors really know who’s attending their church every week.

Scott Ball [00:00:04]:
I’d well, I don’t think that they do.

A.J. Mathieu [00:00:06]:
No? Alright. Let’s talk about it now on the Church Revitalization Podcast.

Introduction [00:00:11]:
Hello, and welcome to the Church Revitalization Podcast brought to you by the Malphurs Group team, where each week we tackle important, actionable topics to help churches thrive. And now, here’s your hosts, Scott Ball and AJ Mathieu.

Scott Ball [00:00:30]:
Welcome to the Church Revitalization podcast. My name is Scott Ball. I’m joined by my friend and cohost, AJ Mathieu. Alright. I have a bone to pick with pastors.

A.J. Mathieu [00:00:42]:
Okay. Well, this is the place for it.

Scott Ball [00:00:44]:
Yeah. Those air it

A.J. Mathieu [00:00:45]:
out publicly.

Scott Ball [00:00:46]:
That’s right. Let’s make everyone who listens to this podcast upset. No. Okay. So here’s my here’s my theory, and it’s the premise of today’s episode of the podcast. My my theory is that pastors, like to say that half of their church only half of their church is there on any given Sunday.

A.J. Mathieu [00:01:08]:
Yeah. I’ve heard it. I’ve heard it from from their lips to my ears more than once.

Scott Ball [00:01:14]:
Yeah. Only about only, like, half our folks are here. And, so I wanna do a little digging into, like, the roots of where did this canard come from and, why do pastors say it? What’s the truth And and what what should you do about it? So that’s that’s the topic of today’s podcast.

A.J. Mathieu [00:01:34]:
Alright. Well, just just another week for us solving all of the world’s problems.

Scott Ball [00:01:38]:
That’s right.

A.J. Mathieu [00:01:39]:
That’s right.

Scott Ball [00:01:39]:
That’s exactly right. Right. Before we hey. Before we dive in though to this, should we do a little shout out for, Healthy Churches Toolkit?

A.J. Mathieu [00:01:49]:
Of course. It it’s a good place to start the show. It’s a good place to start in revitalization or optimization in your church.

Scott Ball [00:01:57]:
Yeah. Yeah. So go to healthychurchestoolkit.com. If you’ve not, if you don’t know what it is, the healthy churches toolkit is an online resourcing platform from our team here at the Malthus group has all of our training around, strategic envisioning, around leadership pipeline design, around developing a biblical board. We even have a simple seven day starter type course called, called the church checkup challenge, which will help you kind of think about where are the pockets of unhealth in your church. We have a vast resource library. We have ministry centric AI tools. We have all kinds of features in there that are designed to save you time and to help you streamline your ministry.

Scott Ball [00:02:43]:
So all the pain points that you feel, very likely, there’s a tool inside that toolkit that can make your life better. So get seven days free, malphursgroup.com/toolkit, or better yet, just go to healthychurchestoolkit.com. I always I always forget that now you can just do that. Healthychurchestoolkit.com gets seven days free. Check it out.

A.J. Mathieu [00:03:03]:
Alright. And, let me tell our, our friends outside of North America also. You can go to healthychurchesglobal.com and register for the toolkit at no cost. Our, our generous, supporters and a, a portion of the, of the cost paid by North American churches helps make that available at no cost to you guys at healthychurchesglobal.com. So do that.

Scott Ball [00:03:28]:
There you go. Do that. Cool. Alright. Very good. Alright. So let’s dive into, this this myth. Only half of your church shows up each week.

Scott Ball [00:03:37]:
Half of your

A.J. Mathieu [00:03:38]:
percentage. Some, larger than zero percentage. Yeah. Is coming on alternate weeks or something to that effect. Yeah.

Scott Ball [00:03:46]:
Yeah. So I have a theory on where this where this comes from. Yeah. All right. So my theory is that let me take a step back and go. I have done my research. I can officially say I have done the requisite research. There is no there isn’t a lot of good data, I should say, telling us of the people who regularly attend church.

Scott Ball [00:04:10]:
How often do those people go to church? Yeah. There’s a lot of data on people who call themselves Christians and how often they go to church. There’s a lot of data on how much the average person in The United States say, goes to church. But of the people who who actually do, not self proclaimed regular attenders, but actual regular attenders, which is a different subset. I can call myself a regular attender, but am I really? I mean, of the people who actually regularly attend church, how often do they regularly attend church? There’s not a lot. I’m not gonna say it’s zero. You’ll find some information out there, but that it’s not a lot of information. So where I think this myth comes from is the large amount of data about how often Americans go to church or self proclaimed Christians go to church.

Scott Ball [00:05:04]:
And you see those numbers and those numbers come in something like only 20% of people who call themselves a Christian regularly attend goes to church every week. So I think what happens is pastors read that headline Mhmm. And they extrapolate that out to their church and they go, oh, probably half the people at my church. You know, it’s different. It’s a different set every week. The only half of the people who go to our church are there on any given Sunday. We got people who are there a weeks and people who are there b weeks. Like, it’s a completely different set of people.

Scott Ball [00:05:43]:
Yeah. But have I have I made that clear? Or have I said that in a way that makes any sense?

A.J. Mathieu [00:05:47]:
Yeah. I think so. I think so. I’ve yeah. I’ve I mean, on several occasions, I have had pastors just really from the jump even just say that. Yeah. Probably it’s about half our church attends, you know, a couple times. And I and in their mind, it’s actually really specific.

A.J. Mathieu [00:06:02]:
Like, they actually think it’s different people there, you know, on the first and third weeks versus the second and fourth weeks. And, you know, I mean, I usually gently kinda push like, oh, is that what you’ve tracked? Is that you that’s what you found? And there’s usually it’s more of a gut feeling. It’s not it’s not hard.

Scott Ball [00:06:21]:
So they’ll say things like let’s say things like, well, you know, on an average Sunday, we’ve we’ve probably got a 20 people here, but, you know, I’d say about maybe a hundred more than that call our church home. We got maybe 200 or 220 people who call our church home. I’m like, oh, okay.

A.J. Mathieu [00:06:41]:
Yeah.

Scott Ball [00:06:42]:
Yeah. And so here’s my theory, and I’m not maybe that’s true. This is kinda not the point. But I guess the reason why this bothers me is I don’t think you really know. Yeah. I think you’re just saying that.

A.J. Mathieu [00:06:55]:
That’s more of what we’re talking about today. Do you know or do you not know? So we break this down into a couple of different areas. Here, I got a let me throw in a little bit of data here for you, Scott. I just pulled this up while we’re talking.

Scott Ball [00:07:05]:
Okay. Alright.

A.J. Mathieu [00:07:06]:
Our church ministry analysis. We ask, how often do you attend?

Scott Ball [00:07:09]:
Oh, yeah. Okay.

A.J. Mathieu [00:07:10]:
And so this is now this is this is like a best case scenario because the people, when we work with the church and they go through the church ministry analysis, we tell them the appropriate audience to take the survey. And it’s not random people in the church, you know, that just show up every now and then. So this is leaders in the church.

Scott Ball [00:07:28]:
These are engaged people in the church. Yeah.

A.J. Mathieu [00:07:30]:
Known to be engaged in the church. So here’s that data. This is probably a high watermark, actually. So we’ve had we’ve had over 1,800 people take the church ministry analysis. I don’t know if you do that. It’s a pretty high number.

Scott Ball [00:07:40]:
I would have guessed it was, you know, close to that.

A.J. Mathieu [00:07:42]:
3.4% attend weekly

Scott Ball [00:07:45]:
out of that. Mhmm.

A.J. Mathieu [00:07:47]:
4.7% attend every other week.

Introduction [00:07:51]:
Okay.

A.J. Mathieu [00:07:53]:
So that’s a pretty strong if you’re in if you really are engaged in your church, you are there just about weekly. And then, you know, the once a month was less than 1%, and, and then the occasional group is down there around that that area too. So I’m

Scott Ball [00:08:09]:
not people I mean, to to your point, we’re not throwing the church ministry now church ministry analysis out with the whole church.

A.J. Mathieu [00:08:17]:
That’s right.

Scott Ball [00:08:18]:
We’re only sending it to people who are we know already are involved. But still I think this kind of proves my theory. And again, this is just a theory. I mean, what you just shared was is real data, but it kind of supports my theory, which is that the less than weekly people, like the let’s let’s give everybody a one week a month buffer. Let’s just say we’re not calling someone who’s out once a once a month a bad a bad person, you know, or, you know, they’re for whatever. They’re sick, A work thing. They’re out of town.

Introduction [00:08:51]:
You can have three of them.

A.J. Mathieu [00:08:52]:
I’m gonna allow three a year.

Scott Ball [00:08:54]:
You’re gonna allow three a year? What about me? I’m I’m I’m I’ll I’ll sometimes go a whole month when I’m not at church because I’m You’re

A.J. Mathieu [00:09:01]:
in a church.

Scott Ball [00:09:02]:
A church? Okay.

A.J. Mathieu [00:09:03]:
Because when we’re not at our own church, we’re at someone else’s church.

Scott Ball [00:09:06]:
At someone else’s church. Okay. Fair enough.

A.J. Mathieu [00:09:09]:
Pumping up their numbers. Like,

Scott Ball [00:09:11]:
this is just don’t count me. I don’t count. I’m not in this. But imagine, you know, basically, you’re there every week, but you’ve you know, you’re there’s a handful of Sundays a year, maybe as much as six or seven even that you’re that you’re not there for whatever reason. Vacation, illness, work obligation, something. Okay? Kid thing. A kid is sick. Mhmm.

Scott Ball [00:09:35]:
Something. Alright? I I think that that my theory is that that’s like, in an average church, probably seventy, sixty five at least two thirds of who’s there on a Sunday morning could be identified that way.

A.J. Mathieu [00:09:53]:
Okay.

Scott Ball [00:09:53]:
And and the everything less than that, the people who are only there once a month, the people who are who regularly are gone twice a month, you know, the people who only come on Easter and Christmas, that that whole crowd makes up no more than one third of the person who would call your church home.

A.J. Mathieu [00:10:13]:
Okay.

Scott Ball [00:10:13]:
So at best, if you and I are talking and you say, yeah. A hundred people are at our church on any given Sunday, but, you know, I would say about a 30 or a 40 people call our church home. I would get I would grant you that. I’d give you a I’d give you a buffer

A.J. Mathieu [00:10:30]:
Okay. Of,

Scott Ball [00:10:30]:
like, thirty thirty five people. Is that fair?

A.J. Mathieu [00:10:34]:
May I don’t know. I don’t know if I’d be that generous. I would

Scott Ball [00:10:37]:
I think Oh, really? Yeah. You you think it’s even smaller? You think that the occasionals or, like, once a month or type folks that that’s an even smaller percentage?

A.J. Mathieu [00:10:46]:
Maybe so. I don’t know. Like, 10%

Scott Ball [00:10:49]:
or 15%? What do you think?

A.J. Mathieu [00:10:50]:
Yeah. I I 66% sounds too close to 50%. We’re I mean, we’re if we’re myth busting the thing. Okay. You know? I mean, that’s is like, oh, what’s slightly better

Scott Ball [00:11:00]:
than that. 16% among friends between friends.

A.J. Mathieu [00:11:03]:
Yeah. I wonder if it’d be more like 20%.

Scott Ball [00:11:05]:
Okay. Yeah. You might be right. I’m trying to be generous here. But it’s definitely not half. It’s not half.

A.J. Mathieu [00:11:11]:
Like, no. I don’t think it’s half.

Scott Ball [00:11:12]:
I don’t think it’s half. Maybe half.

A.J. Mathieu [00:11:14]:
So Well, here here’s my thing. If it was half, you know, we asked churches for data, attendance data. Most, not all, but most have have some okay data on that. To me, it’s a little it’s too clean. If half the people because there’s no way it has actually worked out that, you know, half are coming this week, half are coming you know, two weeks has half this half, two weeks the other half. And so our attendance is always about the same, you know? I mean Yeah. Only minor variations week to week on attendance. I feel like if it was if people were that random, if kids were sick that that frequently or trips happen and all that, I feel like we would see everybody would end up there every now and then, and not Easter, not not Christmas Eve.

A.J. Mathieu [00:11:56]:
We would have these spikes.

Scott Ball [00:11:58]:
I mean, spikes do spikes do dips do happen, but they’re usually pretty predictable around bad weather or, you know, Christmas is over. People are kinda settling back into the groove. You know, it’s by the time you get to the second or third week in in January. Everyone’s like, we really ought to show up at church now. You know? Like, life’s normalized back. Beginning of the school year, everyone’s gonna start out on a new leaf, so you see these little bits of bumps. I mean, you do see that, but it but that doesn’t make it twice. You’d go, well, if that’s the case, then it should be double.

Scott Ball [00:12:31]:
But it but it’s not that. I’d say it’s at best, it’s a at best, it’s a 30% bump over over the baseline.

A.J. Mathieu [00:12:38]:
I think the numbers that you might be seeing are real. I think if you’re I don’t I think if you think you’re doing better than what you’re actually counting, I think that’s, a mythical gut feeling that you have. Like, it is what it is. Almost like, you know, the the the two years after COVID where people are still like, you know, our chances down, but it’s, it was it was COVID. And now we’re five years past COVID. You don’t get to say that anymore. Your church is what it is today. You know? Yeah.

Scott Ball [00:13:06]:
Yeah. That’s true. We have an actually an upcoming episode that you haven’t heard yet, and we talk a little bit about data and denominators. And there is some value in knowing, like, what is that overall number of of people who are connected to your church because you can use that data in a different way. But I do think for a lot of other things, that denominator of average worship attendance is still helpful as a metric because it does kind of characterize what your church is. And I I think this is maybe the point. Actually, we’re kind of circling around what you and I both kind of agreed as the point is. It doesn’t really matter what the data would even say at the macro level.

Scott Ball [00:13:49]:
Even if we were to know, okay, the rule of thumb is 70% or 66% or 50% or 20% of your folks are there once a month and then the rest are there, you know, at least three or three times a month. It doesn’t matter because that’s a generality. What matters is your church. What about your church? What percentage of your church is there once a month? It’s it it doesn’t matter what the what the I mean, except for a conversation like you and I have been having for ten minutes. I felt like I don’t know. What do you think it is? I don’t know. What do you I mean, beyond that, it it it’s irrelevant. If you are a pastor of a church, you should know Yeah.

Scott Ball [00:14:33]:
What the number is at your church.

A.J. Mathieu [00:14:36]:
Yeah. Yeah. It’s like Jesus with the with the apostle. But what about you? Who do you say I am? Now we’re gonna get into it.

Scott Ball [00:14:43]:
Yeah. That’s right. So how about that’s why we titled this how big is your church, actually? So, so let’s talk about why that matters. I I think, there are a couple of things that stand out to me, and I’ll just hit those, and then you can say what you you’re thinking, AJ. First one is, I think you need to identify two key groups of people or maybe three. The first would be who are the people who really are on the margins? Like, those people who really do, they only come once a month. Not the percentage, the names. Give me the names.

Scott Ball [00:15:18]:
Who are these people? The second group of people who would be good to identify are those people who who you probably think are in that category, but they actually are there every week. But the reason why you think they’re in that category is because they don’t ever move beyond Sunday morning.

A.J. Mathieu [00:15:35]:
Yeah.

Scott Ball [00:15:35]:
So in your head, you’re like, this is a person who’s not very connected. What do you mean? They’re there three out of every four Sundays. They are there, but they’ve never taken a step beyond Sunday morning. And so you think of them as a flaky person, but they’re there every week. Mhmm. Who are those people? Those people who they’re engaged in your church, but they are not stepping beyond Sunday. Like, that might be the most important group to be able to know. Yeah.

Scott Ball [00:16:03]:
And then there’s the group that you probably they’re the ones that come to your mind already. They’re the they’re the ones who are volunteering everywhere. They come to everything. You know that they’re they’re every week. You probably know who these people are already. So you kinda have these three categories, people who really are on the fringe, and that’s beyond the folks who are visitors and guests. I’m not talking about that. I’m talking about people who are connected to your church on a regular basis, who’s on the fringes, who’s there but not moving past Sunday, and then you know you know the people.

Scott Ball [00:16:32]:
And and I guess I would just contend that most churches have nothing more than a gut sense about who these groups of people are. They’ve not done any real work to actually get real numbers, and you might actually be kind of disappointed. Or maybe maybe you would be positively surprised at how many people or what the percentage is that’s really engaged and how often are there.

A.J. Mathieu [00:16:54]:
Yeah. Maybe so. Maybe so. Yeah. To me, this it all comes down to intentionality. How intentional are we or do we want to be in discipling people? Because you have to have this data, you know, to really know what like, how are we doing? I guess you don’t you don’t need to know you don’t need to have the data to structure your church in a way that makes sure nobody gets left behind, but you do have to have the data to know where are we starting from and are we making improvements in that. So, you know, I mean, this is what we drive home with, you know, constantly in in in our work is being intentional. Everything the church does should be intentional.

A.J. Mathieu [00:17:33]:
Towards what? Well, fulfilling the great commission. Are we are we helping to make disciples? Are we helping to mature people in the faith to become disciple makers? And the way that happens is by having structure, having information, having strategies, having vision, communicating well, and all these things play in to to this piece of information right here. Because if we don’t know what’s going on, we cannot better do what we are called to do, to to disciple people. So that’s why it matters, and why it shouldn’t be overlooked and, we shouldn’t be just going on on gut feeling, but good information. Good information leads to good decision making.

Scott Ball [00:18:14]:
Yeah. And I guess I would just we’ve we’ve talked about this before, and it’s an an analogy I think is really helpful. The but, you know, we are called you know, if you’re a pastor, you you are called to shepherd the flock, you know, to be an under shepherd under Jesus, to shepherd and to feed the sheep. Right? But you feed individual sheep. You don’t just feed an abstract group of sheep. And, and the, and the, parable that Jesus uses about with the lost sheep, when he leaves the 99 and goes after the one again, I know we’ve talked about this before on the podcast, but the framing of that parable is what shepherd having 100 sheep losing one would not leave the 99 and go get the one. It’s not it isn’t a crazy love. It isn’t like, woah, what audacious.

Scott Ball [00:19:08]:
What an insane thing for this shepherd to do. It’s framed as a completely normal and expected thing for the shepherd to do. This is what a shepherd would a shepherd would leave the 99 and go and get the one. And and my contention is that there are a lot of us who are in ministry who we don’t even know. We don’t know who the who the hundred are, so we don’t know who the one is Right. That we should be chasing. And so that’s why I just maybe this is why it irritates me when I hear pastors go, you know, it’s probably, like, it’s probably, like, 300 people who call our church. Well, how many is it exactly? Mhmm.

Scott Ball [00:19:45]:
Because if you’re a shepherd, how many sheep are under your care? Who Yeah. Who has God called you to shepherd? And There you go. I’m not holding you accountable to knowing every I mean, it’s not maybe realistic or even possible because we’re not the Lord. Didn’t to know every name. But to be so flippant about it and be like, I don’t know. There’s probably, like, some beep group of people. I have no idea who they are. Like, that that’s what bothers me.

Scott Ball [00:20:11]:
It’s like, we should know. This is why data matters.

A.J. Mathieu [00:20:14]:
Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe you wouldn’t know if one wasn’t there. What would the number be, though? 20? You know? Would you notice if 20 weren’t there? Would you know if 33 were weren’t there? You know? I mean, depending on to

Scott Ball [00:20:28]:
me, I guess you’re I mean, there can be some people listening to this, AJ, who would go, well, that’s why churches shouldn’t be big. To me, it’s not a big church, small church thing because I’ve seen small churches do a bad job with this too. It’s obviously easier in a smaller church to notice

A.J. Mathieu [00:20:42]:
Mhmm.

Scott Ball [00:20:43]:
Than in a larger church. But sometimes larger churches are better at data, and data is good. Yep. So it’s not an either or thing. It’s we can be we can be good at shepherding at any size or bad at shepherding at any size.

A.J. Mathieu [00:20:57]:
Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Alright. Well, let’s let’s talk about what what can we do, Scott? How can we how can we know better where we’re starting from? Because okay. This it’s not necessarily a super easy solution. And because you actually get into, well, how does our church function? What, you know, what size are we now? How does it function? What ministries do we offer? Because there are some real barriers to having good data, about who is really attending. And so some of the easy ways to know well, just I mean, a a count is great, but that doesn’t tell you who.

A.J. Mathieu [00:21:34]:
Just tells you how many. Right. Yeah. So Sunday school small groups ministry is a is one way to know because it’s in that small environment, it’s not a big deal to have more of an attendance, taken. Children’s ministry is a good way to know. But, you know, when parents check-in kids, we’re like, okay. They’re here. Unless the parents

Scott Ball [00:21:56]:
run out the door and

A.J. Mathieu [00:21:56]:
drop the kids off at Starbucks.

Introduction [00:21:58]:
I guess that happens. That is done.

Scott Ball [00:22:01]:
Whatnotnot super kind of.

A.J. Mathieu [00:22:02]:
That’s a couple of ways to to maybe pull data from other places that we can bring into the the dataset to know a little bit better. So yeah. Sometimes it’s not quite easy.

Scott Ball [00:22:15]:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean yeah. So I’m hearing the complaints. People go, well, what’s your solution then? So, and I think you’ve mentioned two good ones. I mean, like, if you were to at least start by taking good attendance at your community life things and and then correlating children’s ministry check-in data. But if you were to go, no. We wanna take this seriously, and you wanted to go a step beyond and really start tracking, there would be a couple of things you could do.

Scott Ball [00:22:42]:
And I’m not suggesting these things are easy, but you could do them. One would be and I attended a large church when I was in college. My parents lived in Wisconsin, at that time. And when I was home from college, I attended this church with them. They had no joke. Every week, they printed off this is like a thousand people, maybe 1,200 people. It was a lot. Crazy.

Scott Ball [00:23:04]:
They printed off name tags, like Avery labels, for every person that was on on the roster. And then you were to peel that off each week and put it on, and wear it. And then that’s how they knew who was there and who was not there, by what what name tags got pulled. You know, another way to do this, you can do check-in through, through planning center and and have have an Avery label printer just like you do for children’s ministry. You can do that. We’re we’re you and I know of a church, that does this. It’s an international church that does this. It’s a church of a couple hundred people.

Scott Ball [00:23:44]:
So they’re not, you know, it’s not a church of 50. And they’re doing this. Every week, people come in and that’s how they are able to identify who a guest is too because they don’t have one. And so they they handwrite them, and then they put them in a system so that the next week when they come back, they they can print their own name tag. So, that costs money. There’s that that costs something.

A.J. Mathieu [00:24:05]:
Some people might hear that and they’re like, oh my gosh. That’s that’s terrible. I can’t believe anybody wanna do that. Part of me is like, it would be nice to know

Scott Ball [00:24:12]:
people know people’s names? Yeah. Yeah. I wouldn’t I wouldn’t hate it.

A.J. Mathieu [00:24:16]:
I mean, a reward system, you know, regular Tinder, you know, that way

Scott Ball [00:24:20]:
yeah. Yeah. Get a free get a free premium coffee beverage.

A.J. Mathieu [00:24:24]:
Gamify it a little bit? Yeah. Exactly.

Scott Ball [00:24:26]:
Another way to do this that would be it’s more creepy, but it’s, it’s it’s less less work. One of our one of our colleagues owns a business, and I’m not at least at least at the time of this recording, we don’t have an affiliate agreement. Maybe someday we would. But, he he has a a product called Wi Fi presence, and it connects in with your church’s Wi Fi. And so that just like when you go to McDonald’s or or Starbucks or whatever, you accept a certain type of agreement when you log in to the Wi Fi for the first time. Once it does that, it’s it’s pretty simple technology behind it. It’s it’s IP address chat tracking. So anytime someone shows up when a person shows up to your church and they log into your Wi Fi, it associates that IP address with your database, and it takes attendance for that person.

Scott Ball [00:25:22]:
So you would know not only that they came, but how often they came. And so that’s totally passive. It’s it’s nice for the for the user in the sense that they don’t have to print a name tag or wear a name tag or whatever. But I I mean, I recognize that that might not play in every culture. Some people might find that to be sort of a big brother creepy type situation.

A.J. Mathieu [00:25:43]:
You know, we’re just a stone’s throw away from facial recognition technology.

Scott Ball [00:25:48]:
Yeah. Sure.

A.J. Mathieu [00:25:49]:
You know, going more mainstream. You know, the camera over the sanctuary door would, be checking off every face. That’s that seems a little maybe a little extreme to me.

Scott Ball [00:25:59]:
Could be could be creepy. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, I think that there are other ways to do this. You could you can be as manual with this data collection as you want to be, and you could be as specific as you want to be. I’m I’m just encouraging you to be more specific and make fewer assumptions. The more that you more that you actually know, and the less that you’re just guessing the better. Right?

A.J. Mathieu [00:26:27]:
That’s basically what we wanted to accomplish in today’s episode was learn a little bit more. Get get into the seek a greater level of information and, and then work through that with your team. Talk about what what we really have, because we what we would like to see is that it just leads you to make some strategic choices. How can we better disciple people, and keep people engaged? Get them engaged, keep them engaged, and, build them up in the faith. But let’s let’s seek that output from the ministries of the church, for the purpose of unity in the church. I mean, build build up the believers.

Scott Ball [00:27:08]:
Yeah. Those those people who are on the on the margins, how can we minister to those people? Those people who are here regularly, but but they’re not moving past Sunday morning. Why? Like, we should talk to them maybe and disciple them differently rather than lump them into the same group as the people who are only there once a month, because it’s a different kind of behavior. If someone’s committed enough to show up more often than not, but they’re not going beyond that, you you should be curious as to why that is. Are we not communicating well with them? Are we not holding them accountable? Are we not commute you know, telling them how we would want them to be engaged? Are we not communicating the value of it? You know, why why would you want to? Mhmm. All of those things. I don’t know. I mean, but my my experience has been that most churches know who they’re really committed people are and then kind of assume that everybody else is flaky.

Scott Ball [00:28:05]:
And I think that there’s probably more grades of nuance in there than than most pastors are giving credit.

A.J. Mathieu [00:28:12]:
Yeah. I agree. Alright. Well, we mentioned the Healthy Churches toolkit at the top of the show. So definitely go to healthychurchestoolkit.com and, and check that out. There’s seven day free trial, and there’s resources in there that can help you communicate with your church better, and some things that can, help you structure your environment to be more of a disciple making center. So, there you go. Thanks for being with us on this episode of the Church Revitalization podcast.

A.J. Mathieu [00:28:38]:
There’s links below in the description on YouTube or on your, podcast app that can, get you into this week’s article where, where there’s all kinds of, links. There’s all kinds of good stuff over there that we produce every week that, hopefully can help your church thrive because that’s what we’re all about. Thanks for being with us, everybody.