The Church Revitalization Podcast – Episode 270
In this enlightening episode of the Church Revitalization Podcast, hosts Scott Ball and AJ Mathieu are joined by Dr. Tom Wadsworth, a renowned expert in New Testament studies. Dr. Wadsworth shares groundbreaking insights into how the early church approached worship and assemblies, challenging many modern assumptions about church gatherings.
About Our Guest:
Dr. Tom Wadsworth has dedicated over 40 years to studying the New Testament, with advanced degrees in theology and a PhD specializing in early church practices. His research has gained international attention, with his videos garnering over half a million views from 70 countries.
About the Hosts:
Scott Ball and AJ Mathieu are experienced church consultants passionate about helping churches thrive through revitalization, strategic planning, and leadership development.
This episode is a must-listen for pastors, church leaders, and anyone seeking to deepen their understanding of biblical worship and the early church’s transformative practices. Tune in to rethink what it means to gather as the body of Christ!
Key Discussion Points:
- The Surprising Truth About Early Church Worship
Dr. Wadsworth explains that the early church did not view their assemblies as “worship services” in the way we understand them today. Instead, their gatherings focused on edification—building up one another in faith and community.
- Five Greek Words for Worship and Their Meanings
Delve into the nuances of the five Greek words often translated as “worship” in the New Testament. Learn why none of these terms align with the modern concept of a worship service.
- The Shift from Edification to Temple-Centric Worship
Discover the historical evolution of worship practices—from the early church’s emphasis on community and discipleship to the introduction of temple terminology like “sacrifice,” “altar,” and “priest” by the 4th century.
- Practical Takeaways for Modern Churches
- Reorient your gatherings to focus on edification.
- Incorporate more participatory, small-group interactions to encourage spiritual growth.
- Evaluate your church’s activities, prioritizing those that truly build up the congregation.
- Challenging the Role of Music and Prayer in Worship
Dr. Wadsworth discusses how the New Testament emphasizes prayer over music, raising questions about the balance of these elements in contemporary services.
- Holiness and Love: The Foundations of Christian Living
The conversation highlights how understanding the early church’s view of God dwelling within believers reshapes our approach to holiness, love, and community.
Resources Mentioned:
Dr. Tom Wadsworth’s Videos:
Dr. Wadsworth’s Website:
Visit TomWadsworth.com for additional resources.
Healthy Churches Toolkit:
Get 7 days of free access to resources that can help your church focus on edification and revitalization at MalphursGroup.com/toolkit.
Standout Quotes:
- “The focus of the early church was not on worshiping God in a specific place, but on building up the body of Christ.” – Dr. Tom Wadsworth
- “Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. The goal of our assemblies should always be edification.” – Dr. Tom Wadsworth
- “Worship isn’t just singing; it’s living a life of awe and obedience to Jesus.” – Scott Ball
Practical Questions for Church Leaders:
- Are your church gatherings designed for edification or consumption?
- How can you incorporate more opportunities for active participation?
- Are you overemphasizing certain elements, like music, at the expense of prayer and discipleship?
Watch this episode on YouTube!
Got questions? Meet with our team for a free Discovery Call.
Full Transcript
A.J. Mathieu [00:00:01]:
What can we learn about worship from the early church? We’re talking about that today on the church revitalization podcast.
Introduction [00:00:09]:
Hello, and welcome to the church revitalization podcast brought to you by the Malthus group team, where each week we tackle important, actionable topics to help churches thrive. And now, here’s your hosts, Scott Ball and AJ Matthew.
Scott Ball [00:00:27]:
Welcome to the Church Revitalization podcast. My name is Scott Ball. I’m joined by my friend and cohost, AJ Mathieu. And, also on the podcast today, we are happy to have a guest, doctor Tom Wadsworth. Tom has lit the Internet on fire in recent days, with his videos on YouTube about why the early church didn’t have worship services or certainly not like we think about them today. Tom has expertise in this area. He has studied this topic for more than 40 years and has a 2 master’s degrees and a PhD all in New Testament. His his views I I think his videos on this topic have garnered more than half a million views from 70 different countries.
Scott Ball [00:01:17]:
So this is a really interesting topic. And, doctor Wadsworth, we are thrilled to have you on the podcast to talk about something very unique, I think. And so thanks for being with us today.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:01:28]:
Yeah. It’s my pleasure to be with you guys and to talk to 2 guys who are intimately involved with the consulting with churches and helping churches revitalize that this is right in tune with where where my stuff is going as well.
Scott Ball [00:01:42]:
Yeah. Awesome. Well, I think, if our normal listeners to the podcast who are largely evangelical pastors and church leaders, you know, in in maybe small to mid even some large sized churches, mostly in the United States and Canada, but also internationally, hearing those words, hey. The early church didn’t have worship services, might be a little bit like throwing a grenade into the trenches. And, so maybe we should just start there. Your research sort of highlights this transition from from early church or house gatherings in the early church to temple style worship in the early church. Can you maybe sort of summarize that for those who might be clutching their pearls, hopefully, not while they’re driving? But And, hopefully, if they’re men, they’re not wearing pearls.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:02:41]:
Not that there’s anything wrong with that. Not that there’s anything wrong
Scott Ball [00:02:44]:
with that. Yeah. It’s a good I like the Seinfeld reference.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:02:47]:
That’s good. That’s right. Okay. Well yeah. So maybe my story is probably best described here. It answers your question. I I was preaching through 1st Corinthians back in 1977, and I came to chapter 14. And since it talked about speaking in tongues and since my church at that time did not speak in tongues, I was tempted to skip over it.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:03:11]:
But I thought there’s gotta be something here. And it turns out 1st Corinthians 14 is the longest chapter in the entire Bible that deals specifically with the Christian assembly and what you’re supposed to be doing, in it and what you’re not supposed to be doing there. And it’s extremely helpful stuff. But I found therein that Paul uses a particular Greek word 7 times as a keyword to refer to what Christians should be doing in their assembly. That keyword is or edification, the building up of one another. And in fur verse 26, he comes to a big conclusion there when he says, what then, brethren? When you come together, let all things be done for edification, for the building up of one another. And it hit me there. I was expecting him to say, let all things be done for the worship of god.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:04:06]:
Mhmm. Because after all, I mean, I was in a house of worship, and we had an order of worship. And we had just begun worship with this, and we’re about to close worship with that. And we have worship pastors and worship songs. And, oh my goodness, the the the worship terminology is just throughout our culture today, and yet Paul didn’t have that language. And I wonder why. Where does our language come from?
Scott Ball [00:04:34]:
Yeah.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:04:35]:
And I studied the entire bible on this issue. And then we’re talking about 47 years of research and then plus a PhD on this very topic. I’ve come away with some specific understandings as to why the New Testament would not use worship language in reference to what they did in their assemblies and more, positively, the language that they did use and how they did approach 1st century Christian assemblies at that time. And it’s to summarize that, it’s markedly different than what we do today and how we look at our assemblies.
Scott Ball [00:05:13]:
Okay. So maybe let’s just start there. So this word, worship that we see in in the in the New Testament, we see throughout the bible, obviously, but, in in the Greek, in the original text, we see, in the New Testament. What is that word, and what what does it mean? What people mean by it when they wrote it?
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:05:37]:
Yeah. One thing that finally occurred to me after about 20 years of studying this is that it doesn’t make any difference how I want to define the English word worship. Because Paul, Peter, Jesus, James, John never used an English word worship to describe anything. They were using Greek words. Mhmm. And my There
Scott Ball [00:05:59]:
are different people who, who go to American churches who might be surprised by that.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:06:06]:
Yes. I’ve run into these folks.
A.J. Mathieu [00:06:09]:
Yeah. But was
Scott Ball [00:06:10]:
written in 16/11. Didn’t you know that?
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:06:14]:
Yes. But it’s all Greek words, and it turns out there’s 5 different Greek words that are translated as worship in our New Testament. And that really confuses things even more. But part of my dissertation was I had an entire chapter, maybe it ended up being 80 pages long, that, focused on these 5 different Greek words and what each one of them means. And it turns out none of them mean worship in the modern sense of what we do when we gather together at all. They all mean different things. None of them are synonymous. They all point to different things.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:06:51]:
And to just quickly summarize those, proskoneo, which is the most common word, points to, the ritual act of prostrating yourself before a deity. The second word is latreia, which refers to the act of offering sacrifice to deity. The third word is laterghetto, which referred to the work that priests did in the temple, you know, fixing up the, the showbread and the the whatever else they got going. The pagans also had priests who messed around in their temple, cleaning things up and offering the sacrifices processing the sacrifice all this and then there the 4th Greek word is which refers to the the inner attitude of revering something regarding it as sacred. And then the 5th one was a, used only a couple of times in reference to or that it’s only translated as worship once or twice in the New Testament, but it refers to religious rights, in the, Jewish sense and in the pagan sense of the religious rights that they would carry out in a temple. All these terms are temple terms. Mhmm. That’s an important distinction, and that’s also a key reason why they were not used in reference to what Christians did in their assembly because they didn’t view their buildings as sacred buildings.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:08:13]:
They didn’t view their building as a temple. In Christianity, we now have this whole new understanding that our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit. God no longer lives in a building in Jerusalem.
Scott Ball [00:08:27]:
Mhmm.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:08:27]:
He lives within us. And so the thing that becomes holy is no longer that building. It is us. That is why we are referred to as saints throughout the New Testament when Paul would write to the the saints at Corinth, the saints at Philippi, the saints wherever. They are the holy ones. They are the. They are the ones who because they have God and the Holy Spirit now dwelling within them, they’ve become holy. They’ve been cleansed by the Holy Spirit through, through, their giving themselves to Christ.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:09:02]:
They have been changed. And now the focus for them needs to be on living up to to being worthy of the gospel to which they have been called. And so the assemblies become, in the New Testament time, these building up exercises, the these, sessions where they’re encouraging one another to get better, to live up to that calling that they’ve received as now, disciples of Jesus, as people who are saints and holy ones.
Scott Ball [00:09:37]:
That’s really interesting. So, doctor Wadsworth, when and why did this transition happen from maybe what we see this focus on edification in the early church gatherings to more temple style worship? Like, when and why did that happen? Great question.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:09:56]:
This took me months to figure this out. What I And I’m sure
Scott Ball [00:09:59]:
it evolved. Right? Like, I’m sure there’s not, like, one specific moment in time. Yes.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:10:03]:
It was an evolution. This, my my study I I you can prove that the word worship is not used in the New Testament to refer to what Christians did in their assembly. That’s an easy thing. But my research then went into 2nd century literature, 3rd century literature, and 4th century literature to see all the times this word worship pops up in the various original languages, whether it’s Latin or Greek or Syriac. And and to find out when this term is being used in reference to Christian assemblies. And it’s really not until the 4th century that this takes place. But there were bread crumbs along the way that helped me understand how it developed. And it goes like this to summarize this.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:10:48]:
Toward the beginning of 2nd century, very early on, this idea begins to develop that the Lord’s supper is our sacrifice that we give to god. Mhmm. And that sounds strange to the protestant mind and rightly so. It is strange also to the New Testament mind as well because we know the Lord’s supper is represents Jesus’ sacrifice for us. Not something that we give to God. We don’t need to be offering sacrifices to God anymore. But very early on, the idea that the the lord’s supper was our sacrifice for god begins to be developed. That’s the seed.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:11:33]:
Then the next thing that happens is as the Lord’s supper became miniaturized from a full meal into just this piece of cracker and a juice, shot of juice, it, becomes sacralized. It becomes not just the Eucharist. It becomes the holy Eucharist. And then this the table upon which this sacrifice sits begins to be viewed as an altar.
Scott Ball [00:11:58]:
An altar. Right.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:11:59]:
These are both temple terms. Sacrifice is a temple term. Alter is a temple term. Mhmm. Then the next development in the process comes in in full around the 3rd century where it’s really starting to be used. The people who are presiding over that table upon which the sacrifice sits are viewed as priests, which is fully in concert with the way Jewish priests were were looked at. They also presided over sacrifices on an altar, and they were called priests. And they had special garb that they wore.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:12:33]:
They were revered in various ways. And then the 4th step, the final step in this process, this evolution of thinking, happens in the 4th, excuse me, the yeah. The 4th century, the 300, when church buildings start to be built, sacred buildings for Christian meetings. And if they have a sacrifice in that building that they’re offering on an altar that is presided over by a priest, then the building begins to be viewed as a temple. And there’s a good example. The first example I could find in Christian literature, of this happening is around 3 20 AD. Eusebius, the bishop of of Caesarea, who’d written out the church history volumes, Eusebius is entrusted with dedicating one of these new magnificent cathedrals that Constantine had built. And when he is doing this, he calls the building a, quote, holy temple of God.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:13:42]:
So the full process of sacrifice, altar, priest, temple had had had coalesced there by the 4th century. And when you have all those four things together, you have latrea, in the biblical sense. You have reverted to temple terminology. You’ve reverted to building based religion, that focuses on that sacrifice as being all important, that sacrifice being the lord’s supper. But in the New Testament, these four terms are used differently. The lord’s supper is not a sacrifice that we offer to god. The altar we don’t have altars in Christianity. We don’t have temples, and we don’t have priests except all of us are priests.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:14:27]:
Yeah. All of us are holy ones.
Scott Ball [00:14:29]:
So Right. Right.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:14:31]:
So from the beginning of
Scott Ball [00:14:32]:
this this this language right in, what, in in in Ephesians, Paul uses the same language of us being built up together. Like, this idea of the people of God being the building of God.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:14:45]:
Yeah. We’re all individually the temple of god and collectively the temple. It’s it’s where god resides. You know, a temple is where god resides. I think we make a mistake, though, when we start looking at our church buildings and say, ah, there’s the house of god. God is more present in within those four walls that end within my own house or but god is present within us. This is where the holy resides. It’s not in some building someplace.
A.J. Mathieu [00:15:16]:
And interestingly, churches, I think now well, first of all, you know, this is making me just kind of look at this from a 2000 year perspective. We had at the death, burial, resurrection of Christ, we had this decentralization of of the church. We went from the temple, like a central point or the synagogue, and it it exploded. It got blown out into we, you know, the temples of God, ourselves. And now for 2000 years, it feels like humanity has been bringing trying to bring the pieces
Scott Ball [00:15:46]:
back together into central units again,
A.J. Mathieu [00:15:46]:
kind of as you just described. And I’m modern things, the modern language that pastors of churches have to remind people of is, hey, guys. The church isn’t say our building is not sacred. We are. We’re having to remind our people of this because we’ve sort of diverted back to this temple style worship, and we’re having to tell people, remember the place is not sacred. You are, and we need to go out. We need to you know, the church is the people. It’s not the building.
A.J. Mathieu [00:16:19]:
We’re having to remind ourselves of this because of what we have turned it back into. And I just find that kind of fascinating. And even, Scott, you can attest to this in revitalization work that we do. One of the, you know, components of this is a is a gather step in a discipleship pathway. And, inherently, what always happens whenever we introduce the word worship, because it’s a term we all use, somebody or multiple people on our leadership teams are gonna say, how are we defining that? Are we specifically talking about the music? Are we talking about our entire Sunday morning services? And there’s confusion. And I think this confusion is inherent, maybe because we’ve we don’t really know. We don’t know what worship is supposed to be. And so I think that’s why this is such a fascinating conversation to think now about what it’s become in the 21st century.
A.J. Mathieu [00:17:11]:
And, and we don’t know anymore. I think we’ve lost sight of what we was supposed to be.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:17:17]:
Yeah. And I would I would tweak that a bit. Terminology is key in understanding that the church is not the building. It’s the people. I mean, pastors need to teach that, and they they’ve been getting that for a long time. But I think still, the the tendency for people walking into this holy place, and viewing the sanctuary. You know? Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:17:38]:
And having the altar at the front. The front. We have a front. You know? All of this terminology leads to the idea that, god lives there. Yeah. That’s a holy place. But we really need to work on our terminology. The and the word worship becomes so confusing here.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:17:59]:
The the issue I’ve learned to start talking about our assemblies. This becomes more biblical terminology and gets our minds oriented properly to be able to to address these issue. The issue is not so much, how do we worship today? Well, the issue is, what should our meetings be about? What is the purpose of the Christian assembly? Let’s look at it that way, and then let’s go to the New Testament to find the answer to that question. And there’s real clear answers to these things. It’s not as though it’s fuzzy or you have to make some sort of, deducing of steps from some principles here. No. There’s explicit statements by Paul. When you come together, let all things be done to edify one another.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:18:50]:
Mhmm. So this is it’s great that the the New Testament has actual clear answers on that question.
Scott Ball [00:18:56]:
Yeah. Okay. So before we hop into that, because I I actually wanna dive deeper into into that component, I wanna play for the lack of a much better term. I’m gonna say devil’s advocate, although that that seems to a wholly inappropriate term to use in this context. So you you walk into, you know, some cathedral in Europe, especially one of these really old ones that’s beautiful. And, one could make the case, or I I would even make the case. And, again, I’m I’m I’m as protestant as they come and evangelical as they come. But maybe the older I get I’m not that old.
Scott Ball [00:19:38]:
But the older I get, the more I’m like, wow. I love these places because they’re built to draw your eyes up. You know, they’re built to there’s all kinds of problems with them, to be certain. But they they there’s truth and beauty built into these structures, which in some way draws you closer to the the Holy Spirit who’s within you versus you know, a lot of our churches now are sort of like these black box theaters, you know, that are just objectively ugly, you know, and dehumanizing. And so what’s what’s the case? And, again, I’m I know we’re sort of deviating from the question is, what were they doing in the 1st century? Of course, they weren’t walking into beautiful cathedrals. But is there a theological case to be made that these kinds of buildings, though not present in the 1st century, actually are in themselves edifying because they cause us to think of what is true and what is good and what is beautiful, these sort of transcendental things, rather than, you know, our black box churches today, they we focus much more in a in these environments on we are the church. The the building isn’t the church. But they’re dehumanizing, and they actually don’t have us focusing on those things, which are transcendental and and in fact, lead us to a lifestyle of worship or prostrating ourselves before the Lord in spirit and truth.
Scott Ball [00:21:14]:
So that would be I’m I’m just making the devil’s advocate case that these buildings, which are beautiful, do a better job of leading one to living in, you know, worshiping in spirit and truth like in John 4 than a black box does. What’s what say you, doctor Wadsworth, today? Yeah.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:21:33]:
I think it was just today in the news, they announced that that they’re opening up, Notre Dame, Notre Dame Cathedral, in Paris. My wife and I were just just there last year. We couldn’t go in then, but now they’ve opened it up after, I think it’s $900,000,000 of renovation, just short of $1,000,000,000, and it’s magnificent. And I’ve been to a lot of these cathedrals throughout Europe, and I’ve been very fortunate in my old age to go to these places. And they are inspiring. I get it. But the truth is, if I can be more direct, there’s more holiness in Scott Ball than there is in the Notre Dame Cathedral. And we know this is true.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:22:25]:
Right? I mean, not that you’re I
Scott Ball [00:22:26]:
you don’t know me that well, doctor Wadsworth.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:22:28]:
I’d be
Scott Ball [00:22:31]:
I’d be very careful on that one.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:22:36]:
Well, but but I but still, I yeah. All that’s true.
Scott Ball [00:22:40]:
What you’re saying.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:22:40]:
But you know what I’m saying. And you know what I’m saying is true.
Scott Ball [00:22:44]:
Yes. And Yeah. Not by certainly not by my own goodness,
A.J. Mathieu [00:22:48]:
but but by the lack thereof in
Scott Ball [00:22:50]:
the notes of darkness. By the power of the holy spirit.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:22:52]:
Yeah. But but if you’re lucky, you’ll get people paying $20 a pop just to come see you now.
Scott Ball [00:22:58]:
Yeah. That’d be helpful. That’d be great. Yeah. Yeah. Let’s start that website.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:23:04]:
But but it yeah. I’ve one thing has been I’ve been struggling with, attending evangelical churches for a long time is it just seems like Christians who are sitting in these pews still seem to think that God is out there somewhere. But God is is in here, Christ in you, the hope of glory. Emmanuel, Jesus, God with us. This was the fundamental change that the gospel brought. God is no longer in a building anymore. He’s in us. That changes everything.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:23:39]:
From that theological core belief, everything emerges from that. It took me years to figure that out as well, the the focus on temple terminology. So when our focus gets
Scott Ball [00:23:51]:
to you So let me push on this, though. Again, I’m actually I agree with you. I obviously agree with you a 1000%. But, I’m I’m wondering, is it possible that and and I maybe the cathedrals aren’t even the best example because people do see those places specifically as sacred. But, maybe I’m making a broader argument about, and this is maybe an old testament argument, actually, that the physical space where we are has implications for our inner lives. So when we when one surrounds themselves with with goodness and beauty and truth, these transcendental things, which I know that’s not an that language is not is not that’s that’s more of like a state Thomas Aquinas argument. But, these things do have an impact on our inner selves and our ability to to see the the holiness that resides within us. Is that is there any truth to that, or you say that’s just total nonsense, and why are you listening to Thomas Aquinas?
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:25:00]:
I I mean more toward b than a,
Scott Ball [00:25:03]:
than
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:25:05]:
but, I don’t wanna I
Scott Ball [00:25:07]:
feel like I feel like you’re digging a dump on western civilization right now.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:25:12]:
There’s some truth to that, I suppose. But, you know, the the the the stark fact is, you know, the Notre Dame Cathedral or go to, the Duomo of Milan, go to Saint Peter’s Basilica in Rome, There’s just a handful of people attending anymore at these magnificent cathedrals throughout Europe.
Scott Ball [00:25:34]:
Yeah. Mhmm.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:25:35]:
I mean, people love to pay money to walk through them and say, wow. Look at the stained glass. Look at all these statues. Wow. Wow. Wow. But there’s also a whole bunch of people saying, those Christians could have spent their money on something more useful, like all the people who are starving in the world, and what are they doing for that?
Scott Ball [00:25:55]:
Yeah.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:25:55]:
Yeah. I’m I’m I’m not identifying with either group, here, but I’m just trying to say that I think our our focus is in the wrong place. If you’re gonna spend $1,000,000,000 on one church building, you know, we probably could have made a significant impact on a whole lot of real social problems, with with $1,000,000,000. I’ll be glad. Yeah. I’ll be able I’ll go to Notre Dame, Notre Dame, and I will I’ll be glad I was there. I get it, but I don’t know that my, my Christian maturity will have advanced, at all through the process. I I may be in awe for a few minutes while I’m in there.
Scott Ball [00:26:42]:
Sure.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:26:43]:
That goes away pretty quick. Mhmm.
Scott Ball [00:26:45]:
Yeah. That’s fair enough. That’s fair enough. I yeah. And I’m totally deviating from our notes. I’m I’m just on a esoteric level, I think this is an interesting topic. Just because you would say, like, you know, the the French revolutionaries were totally down with getting rid of that cathedral, and it’s, you know, it’s Victor Hugo and and Napoleon, who go, you know, maybe we should save the thing. And, arguably, Paris is a much better place by by preserving it as a church rather than it becoming what what were they gonna make it? Like, the like a temple to, I can’t remember what they were gonna call it.
Scott Ball [00:27:20]:
So I mean, I I I think and this is maybe 2 different topics, and we don’t need to get sidetracked. But I think there’s maybe some actual social good to beauty existing, you know, versus sort of like a modernist dehumanizing surrounding yourself with things that are cheap and disposable. You know, it it I think it does maybe have some impact on the inner self and how one views oneself. You know, that there is some net positive good for beautiful things even if they themselves are not holy in the way that the that the people of God are holy. So we we don’t need to get sidetracked on that, but I’m I just thought I’d get your opinion on it.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:28:00]:
Well, I can give you a quick scripture to to give you a little support for your idea, and this, you know Okay. It’s Philippians 4, what is it, 7 and 8, where Paul says, whatever is lovely, whatever is honorable, whatever is good, all these things, think on these things. Paul, once you if you focus your mind on things that are, you know, pure and lovely and and good, that has a positive effect. Sure. So yeah. So Yeah. Go ahead and spend $1,000,000,000 on a building. You feel is
Scott Ball [00:28:32]:
a lot. A 1000000000 is a lot.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:28:34]:
Be justified for that. Yeah. That’s right.
Scott Ball [00:28:36]:
A 1000000000 is a lot. A 1000000000 is a lot. Okay. So, I guess, let’s let’s dive into maybe some of the more practical applications of what you’re saying. So if if the early church was focused much more on edification than they were on sort of the things that we associate with worship, what specific activities should pastors implement today to focus on edifying their congregations that maybe they have that it’s maybe minimized or they’re just not doing at all?
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:29:11]:
Yeah. I think start with the word edification. Start there, and then begin to, strategize on how you can improve that factor. Because that was clearly Paul’s mandate, for assemblies, in 1st Corinthians 14 and and elsewhere. The the principle is there throughout the New Testament, edification. So the the challenge becomes then how do we, maximize the building up of one another in the assembly? And the words one another become important here as well because, one anothering is a concept throughout the New Testament as well. You comfort one another. You pray for one another.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:29:57]:
You you confess your sins to one another. You, exhort one another. You encourage one another. You build up one another. The the words and word are are so many of them in the New Testament. Is one anothering activity. And we have lost that by having these, large assemblies that focus on one guy who’s delivering some beneficial edifying message. And instead of allowing other people to be involved with the process.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:30:25]:
And in order for other people to be involved with the process, the the first necessary step that needs to happen is to break big groups into small groups because you can’t have a meeting of 250 people where, 50% of the people speak up because we’d still be in that meeting here from Sunday. Right? It it would just take forever to get done. But I think you’ve gotta break it into small groups where people feel free to speak, to ask questions, to engage with the topic. That’s where growth takes place. That’s where edification takes place if they are able to personally engage with it. But to just sit there in a pew and listen, and then when we’re done, I can go home now, I think they’re probably gonna forget everything the pastor said by the time they get to their car in the parking lot.
Scott Ball [00:31:12]:
Yeah. What would you say to the churches that most pastors would say? Well, we we do do this comp yeah. We we have the worship component that but, you know, we’ve got Sunday school or we have our small group ministry, and so we’ve we’ve got those bases covered. You know, are is that insufficient, or is it maybe just deprioritized where the first you’re saying the first thing is this large gathering, and and you’re talking about sort of flipping the the focus. How would you respond to people to go, well, we do this. We’ve we’ve got edification covered through our small group or Sunday school ministry.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:31:50]:
Yeah. I think that they’re already made they’ve, they’ve got a a major step forward in in getting things done. I Sunday school classes are are good and helpful in that you have a smaller group. If people are able to engage with the topic and talk back and ask questions and and relate to one another, in these home gatherings, these cell groups that many churches set up. This is a major step forward and really important if you and I think most pastors know that if a parishioner is going to just come to the big service and sit in a pew and go home and not engage with anybody else in any other small group meeting, they’re missing out. They’re probably not being discipled like they should. They’re not growing as a Christian toward maturity. They’re just going through the motions.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:32:42]:
And so most pastors realize we gotta do something else. So we gotta get that that small group action going. But I’m finding a lot of churches today that have closed down their Sunday schools. Attendance has dropped. They can no longer support that. And, all these little rooms in church buildings are gathering cobwebs Mhmm. And used as storage rooms anymore instead of, where some real life took place in the people. So Yeah.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:33:15]:
So but but to add one more thing to that. Again, the word is edification. I Yeah. If we reoriented those Sunday school classes or these adult bible studies or these cell groups, whatever you call them, reorient them toward edification. I think one thing I called for in my dissertation at in the final chapter was that there needs to be some study done on, assessing different activities and their edifying value. Maybe we should put a number to that. Like, what is the edification We
A.J. Mathieu [00:33:53]:
do this. And then we actually do this exactly.
Scott Ball [00:33:55]:
We do this so
A.J. Mathieu [00:33:56]:
that we can talk.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:33:57]:
I wanna learn about this. But if if you sing a particular song, what is its edifying value on a on a 0 to 10? And is it gonna vary from one kind of song to another? And so so does the edification quotient move up or down depending on the kind of song? If, a a sermon or scripture readings, and, to gauge all these different activities on their edifying quotient, their ability to edify one another and build up one another. So start to look at those things. I think sometimes our our our adult bible classes or adult Sunday school has been more toward education as opposed to edification. Paul uses the word edification in an interesting, context in 1st Corinthians 8 verse 1 where he says, knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. That’s the word edification. That’s why there again. Mhmm.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:35:01]:
It’s the injection of love into the process of whatever the con conversation is that makes edification possible. That’s where people are built up. They grow toward maturity in Christ when there is a discussion with a loving focus going on, not just head knowledge. I’ve seen too many churches for too long where the guys are getting really smart, but they’re not very loving, not very compassionate, not very wise, not very mature. They’re still just the scoundrels they always were, but just now they’re this bible banging obnoxious jerk. Mhmm. Yeah. I’d be quite blunt with it.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:35:43]:
But Yeah. What’s lacking is they really weren’t edified and built up and strengthened. They were just educated, and, that can puff up, not build up.
Scott Ball [00:35:54]:
We talk about this. We we we go back to the great commission, you know, and what Jesus says is to, you know, to make disciples of all nations and, to teach them to observe or to obey everything I have commanded. And most churches act like what Jesus said is teach them to know everything that I commanded. And so I I think that that’s where a lot of churches get tripped up is they’re a fundamental misunderstanding of Jesus’ commission for the church, which is teach them to observe, to obey Mhmm. Which can only be done in community. You know, teach to know, you can get from a book. Teach to know, you can get from a lecture. Teach to know, you can get, you know, from a podcast or a YouTube video like this.
Scott Ball [00:36:37]:
But, teach to obey can only come from this loving community building 1 and up building up one another, I think.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:36:46]:
Mhmm. Scott, I’m 71 years old. I’ve never heard that concept before about the observing. Thank you for that. That’s great stuff. I’m with you
Scott Ball [00:36:56]:
all the way. It’s bread and butter for us in the conversations we have in churches with churches.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:37:00]:
Very good.
A.J. Mathieu [00:37:00]:
Yeah. I mean, I always say to you know, because this is an explanation that we that we give most often in, you know, when we’re working working with teams, and I always say, you know, the observance or the obedience to the command is the demonstration of knowledge. You first have to obviously understand what did Christ command, but when we, when we demonstrate obedience, we demonstrate understanding, and it’s a it’s transformation versus education. So, that’s what we’re going for. Yeah. Another key passage that we work that we work all, you know, deeply in is is acts chapter 2, 41 through 47, which kinda gives us an outline of church structure and behavior. But, you know, in verse 42 is, you know, what they were devoted to. The the they were devoted to the to the fellowship, the breaking of bread, to prayer, to the apostles’ teaching.
A.J. Mathieu [00:37:49]:
The apostles are all dead and buried. They’re they’re with the Lord. We don’t directly have their teaching other than through the word and, you know, the epistles and and, and through, through the gospels, which you know, so it’s obviously carried on through other other leaders in the church to teach people that have been given the gift of teaching to teach, but the point is still transformation and not knowledge, which is what you’ve been trying to trying to say as well. But, you know, that that passage, I’m just curious what you’re how you how you think about acts 2 when we have this first picture of the early church, what they were doing, and how that has become translated now to today.
Scott Ball [00:38:32]:
And before you answer that, I wanna sort of add to that. We we start with verse 41 because we’d like to point how we have there’s this gathering of people at at Pentecost Mhmm. Who hear the word proclaimed.
A.J. Mathieu [00:38:49]:
Yeah. The gospel.
Scott Ball [00:38:50]:
Yeah. Starts the gospel’s proclaimed among the gathering of the people. And so we we kind of make the case that churches that don’t preach the gospel regularly aren’t being biblically faithful fully because that journey starts with the hearing of the word. You know, faith comes by hearing, hearing by the word of God. But but it can’t end there. It has to move to edification. So, the journey be the journey of discipleship begins with evangelism is mostly spent in edification, but then is evidenced on the back end by a transformed life. And so we we would call that, like, evangelism indeed, which we see in verse 47, you know, that they are growing in favor with all the people.
Scott Ball [00:39:33]:
And, the Lord adds to their number day by day those who are being saved. So we call it an evangelism sandwich. You know, we we, that’s fake Saint Francis of Assisi quote, preach gospel at all times if necessary. Use words. It’s like, no. You you must use words, then we must be edified, and then that has to result in something, which is a transformed living. And I’m curious, if you would agree with our reading there of sort of verse 41 through 47.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:40:01]:
In my dissertation, I had one of the entire chapters was on studying all the the key verses in the New Testament that discussed Christian assemblies. And Acts chapter 2, 41 to 47, there was a key part of that. I actually was the the they devoted themselves to the the apostle’s teaching, to, to the fellowship, the breaking of bread, and prayers. I actually came away a little different understanding that the apostle’s teaching, that there were the word used there is either didaskalia or diddek diddekay. So when he says they were devoted to he might be referring to the apostles themselves who were devoted to their teaching, to their preaching message, not to congregations, but rather to to the proclamation of the gospel, to the Jews in the temple, to the Jews in the synagogue, to the Jews wherever they were. That was the prime probably the the meaning of teaching there in in acts 242. The, the fellowship, it probably is better referred to better understood as the sharing. There the koinonia there.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:41:27]:
And I think he even identifies it more clearly in a couple verses later where he talks about they were actually shared everything that they had. Everything was in common among them. That sharing process was likely what’s going on there of sharing physical their their property, their their their their goods, their whatever they had. And then the, the third thing is the breaking of bread. I came away with a a some people immediately jumped, oh, that’s talking about the Lord’s supper. Mhmm. I don’t think so. I don’t think so at all.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:42:00]:
Look at the way that term is used throughout Luke, both in, the gospel as well as in acts, is probably more than likely referring to the sharing of meals. Just this common and he even talks about that in verse 47, breaking bread in their homes. Mhmm. So they’re they’re sharing their meals together as well as the other sharing that I talked about. And then the final thing is the prayers. Prayer was a a significantly important part throughout the book of acts. It’s mentioned time and time again at the significant pivotal moments in the trajectory of the church where they would stop and they would pray and then some big something big would happen They stop, and they’d pray, and something big would and it goes on just like this throughout the book of Acts. So the prayers were critically important toward the progress of the early church.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:42:53]:
So that’s a quick summary where I came through with with, acts 241 to 47.
Scott Ball [00:43:01]:
Yeah. I don’t know. I I you’ve probably studied it more than I have, but, you know, you that sentence starts in verse 40 well, verse 41 is in, you know, ends with in about 3,000 souls were added that day. And then verse 42 starts with, and they
A.J. Mathieu [00:43:14]:
They. Yeah.
Scott Ball [00:43:15]:
Devoted themselves to the apostles teaching.
A.J. Mathieu [00:43:17]:
They is then, which we read as the 3,000.
Scott Ball [00:43:20]:
The 3,000. Yeah. Yeah. Devote themselves to the, you know, to the apostles’ teaching, would it which to us, it sort of implies that,
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:43:29]:
I
Scott Ball [00:43:29]:
don’t know. I always have taken that to understand that they are then learning what Paul or Peter, rather, is just kind of explaining the story of Jesus in summary. We get this, you know, Cliff’s notes version of this of the sermon in in acts 2. And I would have to think that there’s 3,000 people now who who need to learn. You know, there’s no there’s no gospel for them to read at this point. So they’re having to learn from the apostles, specifically. What is the life and teaching of Jesus, and and and about his second coming and so on. Is that is that not a a fair reading of of the of that?
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:44:09]:
I think so. We need to I’ve learned to distinguish between in assembly speaking and out of assembly speaking. Mhmm. One of my my seven videos on YouTube is titled, why they didn’t preach sermons in the early church. And that it comes from a study of the word preach. There’s 2 Greek words there, kerusso and. These two terms, are usually used in reference to outside of the assembly, proclamation of the gospel to unbelievers, and delivered with the intention of gaining converts to Christianity, to having people believe the gospel. That’s what preaching is in the New Testament
Scott Ball [00:45:03]:
Mhmm.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:45:03]:
That was not done to Christians, but rather it was done, to non Christians. And then once Christians were gained, that’s when you see the term teaching develop. Okay. Later on in through Acts and through all the the epistles as well, teaching becomes something It it does refer sometimes to, gospel proclamation. But for the most part, you have teachers in the church, and it’s of actual function within the church structure of the 1st century. And these are people who are devoted to teaching the brethren, about the the essential
Scott Ball [00:45:42]:
doctrine and so on. Yeah. Okay. So here’s a practical question I have for you. Again, I’m I’m interested in your thoughts on this. So I’m thinking of, like, Paul Paul has this vision, the man in Macedonia. This is a whole interesting story that you probably know much better than me, but I I do think the whole thing is interesting. He has this vision of a man in Macedonia.
Scott Ball [00:46:02]:
He he he goes there, and there isn’t a synagogue for him to go to. And and then when he gets so he goes to outside the city to the river, I guess, where would that would have been been the the place for, Jews to gather to for to kinda go through the synagogue exercises. And there are no men there. It’s just women. So, Paul preaches there to to the women, and and then builds this this relationship, and and, it sort of springs a whole church there as a as a result of this. But I’m I’m curious from a just a natural evolution of things. Most Christians were Jews, early on. Most Christian Jews then would have continued the habit of gathering together in something closer to what we think of as a worship service in synagogue on Saturday.
Scott Ball [00:47:00]:
So they had this habit that was happening on Saturday, and many Christian early Christians were in this kind of a gathering on Saturday. And then there’s the Christian gathering on on the Lord’s Day. That’s definitely edification and not a worship service. Is it is it possible that things just sort of evolved as the the faith became increasingly gentile, and they weren’t going to synagogue? They were sort of replicating some of these synagogue habits at the Christian gathering that was happening on the Lord’s Day, because they were no longer doing these things on Saturday in synagogue. I’m I’m just curious, or am I am I reading too much into it, in sort of the evolution of these things?
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:47:46]:
This was another part of the dissertation. I I I have I’ve got so many thoughts here. First off, the synagogue. One mind blowing idea that I stumbled on through my research was that, even though I’d always used the phrase synagogue worship and synagogue services. You know? They had services in the synagogue, and they had synagogue worship, of course. Well, it turns out the word service and the word worship are not applied to synagogue activity either in the 1st century. Now it develops that way, but even then, the synagogue was a place of learning. It was a place to study Torah.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:48:26]:
There’s also uses something of a community centered as well. It’s but we have tended to think in modern terms of our church buildings and, oh, a synagogue. It’s just like our church buildings, except there’s a bunch of Jews in there going through their services. Yeah. Well, just wait
Scott Ball [00:48:41]:
a minute. I’ve been to, like, a an orthodox service, and they Yeah. It’s doesn’t look a lot like a a modern church worship service, but there there are identifiable things that you go. Okay. They’re reading scripture, you know, and then a a rabbi is giving some some semblance of a homily or a or a sermon. Are you is are those modern orthodox practices sort of maiming Christian practices, or were these things not not present at the time?
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:49:11]:
I think they were not, for the large for the most part present in the 1st century. The best scholarship and research into 1st century synagogues, indicates that these are these were seen as different than the temple. The temple was the place of worship. This is the temple is the place where you offer sacrifices, where you prostrate yourself, where you go through these religious rites. But the synagogue was not such. Right. The synagogue was a place of learning. And the synagogue also, by the way, is not a biblically authorized institution.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:49:45]:
It’s nowhere mentioned in the Old Testament. It just pops up in the intertestamental period probably during the, the exile. And thus, it’s it’s well entrenched by the time Jesus comes around in the 1st century, but there’s no biblical commands for us to have a synagogue. I just point that out just important thing to remember here.
Scott Ball [00:50:07]:
Right.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:50:07]:
So but when the temple was destroyed in AD 70, the Jews were just just what what do we do? What do we do? And so as time went on, they began to, use more temple terminology to refer to what was going on in their synagogues because the temple was no more. And even here we are 2000 years later, there still is no temple for Jews. And there’s a massive movement among Judaism worldwide to rebuild the temple, always has been. I don’t think it’ll ever get done. But the the the point is the synagogue gradually became more sacralized, and they started to refer to what’s going on there as a service for god when it wasn’t really a service for god before it was a training place. It was a place for learning. And and the the
Scott Ball [00:51:03]:
church so interesting to me, and now we’re really off topic, but the you know, a a modern Jew, I don’t I don’t know from their own text how they just how they can be justified because they they’re they’re not doing the sacrifices. So, you know and they’ll say, oh, well, you know, we’re doing these mitzvahs. Right? Like, we’re doing these acts of service. But that’s much closer to maybe a a legalistic Christian perspective than it is a Jewish one. Like, I I it’s always interesting to me, and I’m I’m not saying this to slam the Jews, please. But I I do find that I’m I’m not sure that I fully, intellectually grasp what their argument is now because without the without the temple and without the sacrifices, what what’s their standing? How do they how are they justified?
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:51:50]:
Yep. It’s it’s it is people who are Jews who are really grappling with the text are struggling with that very fact because it and that’s why there is this massive movement to rebuild the temple and to restore. They actually want to restore animal sacrifice. And start
Scott Ball [00:52:07]:
imagine that. I mean, even if they were to rebuild the temple, I can’t imagine society being okay Yeah. Animals have a hard time putting it.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:52:14]:
Not gonna happen. But still, that’s the old testament. I mean, the the the the thus saith the lords on this stuff about how to do sacrifices and to do sacrifices and to go to the temple for all these purposes is really explicit and clear. And yet, they’re they’re they’re in a quandary because they don’t have a temple anymore.
A.J. Mathieu [00:52:36]:
Well, the early church clearly struggled with the Jewish habits. I mean, what do we keep? What do we cast off? You know? I mean, these were major conflicts in the church, especially around circumcision and other things like that. So, you know, yeah, there there was a pull. Like, what do we what do we hold on to from the past and what is supposed to be new and what how how do we do this? What do we do differently?
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:52:58]:
Yep. It it was it still is an issue that I’ve been seeing. I don’t know about you guys. In the last 5 years, a growth of, the messianic movement.
Scott Ball [00:53:10]:
Oh,
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:53:10]:
okay. The these messianic churches that, have essentially restored the the Jewish feasts. They they restore a lot of Jewish language to what’s going on in Christian. They’re they all consider themselves Christians, but they’ve actually gone back to a lot of, Torah thinking on, on a ton of things, including meeting on the Sabbath. They meet on Saturdays, and they would adamantly say that that’s something you gotta do. This is a growing movement right now, that has boggled my mind.
Scott Ball [00:53:47]:
Yeah. It does boggled mine too. I do think maybe the the one of the greatest apologetics for the Christian faith is the destruction of the temple in 70 AD as Jesus said it would be. You know? I think that coming down of the temple and him saying, look. I I did the sacrifice. You know, and he and he gave a season for the for the people to to repent and to turn away from that and then allow this destruction to happen. I I think it is one of the greatest apologetics because there is no standing if you’re if you’re a Jew. There’s just I don’t I don’t I don’t understand from a Old Testament perspective the argument of how am I justified then if if I’m not observing these sacrifices.
Scott Ball [00:54:29]:
You certainly can’t point to the Old Testament and say, I can just do these mitzvahs, and and that’s good enough. That’s that’s that’s not in there. Mhmm. So, I I might cert go ahead.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:54:42]:
Well, I have these 7 videos on YouTube. They’re all each 1 hour lecture that I gave some, 2 years ago. And the third one is entitled, the the temple that changed everything. If we fully understand everything that the New Testament is saying about the temple, the Jewish temple, and about its destruction and what the new temple is, that be provides this solid theological underpinning for the way we approach our assemblies and the way we approach life in general. That was the newness of Christianity that made it so starkly different than Judaism and paganism, surrounding the the Christian culture in the 1st and 2 2nd century. It was massively different, but based primarily based on the fact that there was no temple. There were no sacrifices. There was no altar.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:55:38]:
There was no priest. That was the distinctive element of Christianity until they resurrected them all.
Scott Ball [00:55:46]:
Well, that’s a really that’s a great segue then, I think, to this, maybe, place to land the plane, so to speak. I don’t think your argument is, or what you would observe, is that worship, because the temple is gone, that these elements of worship, you know, I think was it 5 different words you said, or 5 different words translated as worship? That these things, that are described and translated as worship, that they’re suddenly unimportant now, and there’s no place for them. So how should a new testament faithful church observe and practice the the, sort of, the actual meaning of these words in their everyday life. You know? If if we are to embody and to value worship, because certainly we are, And if what we do on a Sunday morning isn’t actually that, then what is it that we ought to do to better embody the the heart behind the the word worship? If that makes
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:56:54]:
the question.
Scott Ball [00:56:54]:
Hopefully, that question makes sense.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:56:56]:
Oh, yeah. No. I get it. Let me just try to be this real short on this, because this could go on for a long time, this particular aspect of it. But it it comes down to holiness. Because, again, this fundamental change, god no longer dwells in a physical building. He now dwells in us. It becomes incredibly important for us to treat our bodies appropriately, to to, treat our behavior or to change our behavior so that it reflects this holiness.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:57:33]:
I once did a study for the all the times in the New Testament where things are emphasized, where Paul would, like, list the important things that you gotta be pursuing. And the number one thing is love, and the number two thing is holiness. These are mentioned more frequently than any other admonition in the New Testament, love and holiness. And these two things represent the 2 temples. The one temple is that we’re all made
Scott Ball [00:58:02]:
today loves love and kind of abhors holiness.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:58:05]:
That that’s true. But but the let me finish this first point about the this, the whole body of Christ now is the temple as you pointed out from Ephesians 2. That’s the temple, and you can’t be messing with the temple. Division in the body is really bad. Mhmm. That’s where God resides. You cannot be dividing that thing. You cannot be unloving toward your brothers.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:58:31]:
Loving one another inside our temple is crucially important. And then the holiness of Aspect is crucially important because God dwells in us, because we are the temple individually as well. And so right behavior, right speech, being pious is is a word that’s also fallen out of favor. But the piety, solidarity in good living, righteous living is something that Christians are called to do and that’s fundamentally it’s it’s job number 2 right after job number 1, which is loving one another and all that stems from the fact of that we are now the temple of God. This is where God resides within us and with us within us as a group.
A.J. Mathieu [00:59:22]:
Yeah. So our our our our Romans 12 1 spiritual act of worship is putting to death the things of the flesh and living a transformed life of holiness reflecting the God who is within us.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [00:59:36]:
Yes. That is our spiritual act of latrea Mhmm. Which is another one of those Greek words. Right?
A.J. Mathieu [00:59:43]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Scott Ball [00:59:44]:
Yeah. I have described, and I’m I’d be curious, if you would pick apart my definition. I don’t think I read this anywhere. I’m also probably not the only person who maybe has described it this way. But, when I talk to churches and I they say, well, what do you mean by worship? I I will usually say living in awe and obedience to Jesus. Is that a fair definition, or is that, like, to me, I think awe awe has something maybe that speaks to that that that prostrating yourself, like being in awe of of who God is, in our inner life and then being acting in obedience? Maybe that speaks to that holiness, or have I am I missing something?
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [01:00:26]:
No. I would say that’s what Christians ought to be doing, is just as you described. I think when we even engage with the challenge of defining this English word, we’re starting to get we’re starting to add to the confusion and not adding clarity because we use this word worship so often in reference to what we do in our assemblies. And so then people it’s this it just gets confusing. And and it’s hard to have a an intelligent conversation with people if you’re gonna use the word worship in the sentence. Because when you see that word worship in your New Testament, it means something different than what our English word worship means today. Mhmm. And that’s a fundamental problem until they start to clean up the, the English translations and start to make them a little more clear as to what those words mean that are behind it.
Scott Ball [01:01:20]:
You Need to get yourself on one of those translation teams, doctor Wadsworth, and so you could yeah. So they
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [01:01:25]:
Yeah. I I’d be glad to help out if somebody needs some help with that. You you know my number.
Scott Ball [01:01:32]:
Yeah. Well, listen. I I we see the same kinds of challenges too. I I like to point out, we do, you know, like, leadership development work with churches. And the interesting choice, in translations for the word diakonos, for example, sometimes being translated servant and other times being translated deacon, as if they are different words. It’s the same word, but people treat them differently
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [01:01:56]:
Mhmm.
Scott Ball [01:01:57]:
Depending on how it’s translated. I I do think people sort of underestimate how much, leverage that translation has over your perception of what the verse means.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [01:02:07]:
Huge. What you just said is is huge. It’s even bigger than we might with diakonos, you can also translate that as minister or servant or deacon. Woah. Where are we going now? Let’s let’s go to the word. Woah. There are people who would say, and I might agree with them, that we wouldn’t shouldn’t be translating that as church anymore because the word church in English is way too churchy. It’s way churchier than the word ekklesia is.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [01:02:38]:
Ekklesia referred to it was an assembly. It’s it’s a gathering. That’s what ekklesia is in the New Testament. Now you need to study all the different times, and it has a little different shade of meeting in different places. But it never means a building, which our modern word church does. The terminology becomes incredibly important, on all these issues related to the assembly and other things as well, because our modern English translations can really start to confuse us more than make things clear.
Scott Ball [01:03:13]:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, the random sometimes translation of as bishop, other times as overseer, other times as elder, when you sometimes have the word being translated as elder, adds to confusion. Yeah. So, I don’t know who to blame for all of that, but, yeah, it there it it it does add some justification to the to the case of teaching the average person, especially in 2024 when it’s so easy to hop on Blue Letter Bible. And if you if you’re maybe a little bit confused or just not certain, take 5 minutes and go back and look. You don’t have to have gone to seminary to to see these things and read it. Yeah.
Scott Ball [01:04:01]:
You go, okay. You know? Obviously, a seminary degree helps you understand it maybe a little bit better. But Yeah. You know, you don’t have to be a a genius or or, you know, a scholar or have, you know, 18 degrees or something to be able to do this work and just go back and look and see what it says.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [01:04:18]:
Yep. Agreed. The online resources for bible study are are remarkable. Free. Free. Free.
Scott Ball [01:04:24]:
That’s a key word. Free. That’s right. Yeah. Agree. It’s amazing.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [01:04:28]:
Yeah. Well, let me
A.J. Mathieu [01:04:29]:
kinda let me maybe summarize with a statement here for people to come away with today. Our what we what we call worship when we when our assemblies gather, singing songs of praise to God is not inherently wrong.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [01:04:44]:
Correct.
A.J. Mathieu [01:04:45]:
But if our churches, what we call our churches, lack elements of edification to equip the saints for the work of ministry, and to live transformed lives, that lacking is wrong. And so to incorporate both, would be a perfectly healthy environment. Anything wrong with any of those statements?
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [01:05:07]:
Nothing. Nothing is wrong with that. And and that’s one of the common misconceptions, because in in modern mind, the word worship often connotes singing Mhmm. And praying. Mhmm. And there’s nothing wrong with singing and praying in the assembly, and they definitely sang and they prayed in their assemblies in the 1st century church. And by the way, I did a little quick study in this. Praying is mentioned a whole lot more than singing in the New Testament.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [01:05:34]:
Yes. And yet we have made we’ve got 40 minutes of singing in a lot of churches now. Yeah. And at about 30 seconds of praying, something’s not right there. Yeah. I’m not saying we need to have 40 minutes of prayer either. The the the assembly should be for building up one another. Yeah.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [01:05:52]:
And not everybody is musically oriented and loving this concert thing that’s going on. Mhmm. Mhmm. And there’s a sense in which, all this singing that’s going on is just simply getting people puffed up or pumped up, rocking that get that bass guitar going. Hit those drums a little bit. Crank up the volume. You know?
Scott Ball [01:06:14]:
Yeah. Or distracted if it’s not very good. Yeah.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [01:06:17]:
But it’s there’s a sense in which a lot of our music today is more sensual Mhmm. Than it is spiritual Mhmm. And that that’s a concern. Mhmm. The the the thousands of people who are responding to me, to my videos, I’m getting a lot of people who are just fed up with this whole concert approach. And people are come walking away saying, what are you people doing? What’s going on?
Scott Ball [01:06:42]:
Young young people too. Actually, there was an article that just came out in the New York Post this week on this this issue that a lot of young men in particular are leaving these churches and going to Eastern Orthodox churches because they’re like, I want something real. You know? We won’t we let’s not go into the the the yeah. Let’s not open that can of worms, but I think the the the drive behind that speaks to what you’re talking about. Yeah. People wanting something real, and not emotional. We yeah. I think that we could be Go ahead.
A.J. Mathieu [01:07:14]:
Maybe if some of the things that people they they and and myself included to some degree in in certain areas, this conflict or this dissatisfaction that we might be feeling is because we’re we’re perhaps we have this innate sense that there’s it’s not pure. It’s not holy. What we’re attempting to do isn’t maybe what god’s design was for it, and we’re trying to figure out what that is.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [01:07:38]:
Yes. I think if people want something real, where the real was found is in edification, And that happens best in small groups Yeah. Where the focus of the discussion is not just on head knowledge Mhmm. But on people growth.
A.J. Mathieu [01:07:59]:
Yeah.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [01:08:00]:
And it’s gotta be directed toward how can we be better. And then then you’re getting somewhere. And I’ve had Yeah. Hundreds of people tell me, Tom, I haven’t gotten anything out of going to church for 20 years. I I haven’t gotten anything out of a sermon for decades. I quit I’m having people to I quit going years ago, and my spiritual life could not be better. Something seems wrong with that, but, but they’re finding that in small groups, sometimes in house churches or whatever whatever the small group is where they’re really relating to one another talking to one another scripture being foundational to their discussions. That’s where they’re growing and they don’t have to sit in a pew and listen to a sermon and to see a concert with smoke machine going on to to, to be built up.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [01:08:53]:
It’s it’s when they engage with the topic themselves when people grow.
Scott Ball [01:08:58]:
Yeah. That’s so good. Well, you know, certainly, it’s a good reminder and a good encouragement that to to not to make this about us. But the work that we do in helping churches get back to the fundamental things of evangelism and edification are that’s the heartbeat of what we do. We we root everything in the great commission in this idea that Jesus has this dual call to go make disciples and to teach them to observe. And, so thank you, doctor Wadsworth, for being with us today. And just a reminder that this work is so important and and the hope that’s out there actually that every church can be a biblically faithful church. It isn’t rocket science.
Scott Ball [01:09:36]:
It’s getting back to the basic things and maybe even having that that moment of clarity of stepping back and going, oh my goodness. We’ve gotten so distracted by all of these other things that we’ve gotten away from the simplicity of what it means to be an assembly of of the people of God, that is ought to to be preaching the good news, edifying one another, and then living transformed lives in between. And, so I’m so glad that you came on, and, hopefully, everyone listening to the podcast today has enjoyed this conversation and learned something.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [01:10:15]:
Yeah.
A.J. Mathieu [01:10:16]:
Yeah. Doctor Wadsworth, a lot of this has stemmed from, I think, it’s 7 video series that you did, that has gotten an awful lot of traction recently. Excuse me. How can people find that? Is YouTube the best place for us to direct people to to hear more about your your work?
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [01:10:33]:
It probably is. I have a YouTube channel, which is youtube.com/at tom Wadsworth. I think that’s what it is. But just do a search for Tom Wadsworth and maybe the word worship thrown in there on YouTube, and you’ll find it. My website, tom Wadsworth dotcom, also has, all these videos and some some other resources as well. I’m trying to add to those as time goes by. People are, I’m finding this stuff to be in hot demand right now, and I need to be generating more things that that are helpful to people because people are searching as you know.
Scott Ball [01:11:07]:
Yeah. Mhmm. Yeah. They are. That is true. Well, thank you so much for being on the podcast with us. We will have some some version of show notes for today’s episode. If you go to malphursgroup.com/270, you will see, those show notes.
Scott Ball [01:11:23]:
And, as we wrap up here, just a reminder, that you can get 7 days if you were like, well, my church needs some help. We need to be getting back to the basic things. We have great resources for that in our Healthy Church’s Toolkit, and you can get 7 days free access to that by going to malfirstgroup.com/toolkit. So, check out those resources. Check out the, show notes at, malphursgroup.com/270 there. And, thank you again, doctor Wadsworth. So glad to have you on, and, hopefully, we can talk to you again soon.
Dr. Tom Wadsworth [01:11:53]:
Yeah. I really enjoyed it, AJ and Scott. And God bless your ministry with with church revitalization. This is so important, so badly needed right now as churches are are really struggling all over the planet. Mhmm.
Scott Ball [01:12:05]:
Amen. Amen. Yeah. Alright. Well, thank you, and thanks everybody. We’ll see you next week.
