The Church Revitalization Podcast – Episode 281

If you’ve been in church leadership for any length of time, you’ve likely felt it—the weight of declining attendance, the challenge of reaching younger generations, and the growing sense that Christianity’s influence in American culture is waning. For many of us serving in ministry, recent decades have brought difficult conversations about church closures, budget constraints, and the painful reality that fewer people in our communities identify as followers of Christ.

We’ve prayed. We’ve strategized. We’ve wondered if this downward trend would ever bottom out.

That’s why the recent findings from the 2023-24 Pew Research Center Religious Landscape Study caught my attention. This comprehensive survey of nearly 37,000 U.S. adults suggests that after years of steady decline, the percentage of Americans identifying as Christians may have stabilized at just above 60 percent. For those of us who have watched the numbers fall year after year, even a plateau feels like welcome news.

The study paints a picture of where we stand today: 62% of American adults identify as Christian—40% Protestant, 19% Catholic, and 3% belonging to other Christian traditions. Meanwhile, the religiously unaffiliated (often called “nones”) represent 29% of the population, making them the second-largest group in our religious landscape.

But behind these statistics are real people—the neighbors we’re called to love, the coworkers we hope to reach, the family members we pray for daily. These aren’t just data points; they’re souls Christ died to save. And how we respond to these trends—both as individual believers and as church communities—matters deeply.

Below, we’ll explore what this latest research reveals—both the encouraging signs and the sobering realities. Most importantly, we’ll consider what it means for your ministry today. Whether your church is thriving, holding steady, or struggling to keep the doors open, these insights can help inform your approach to fulfilling the Great Commission in 2025 and beyond.

After all, the Church has faced countless challenges throughout its history. Yet through it all, Christ’s promise remains: “I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it” (Matthew 16:18).

The Good News

Let’s start with what might be considered the headline: after years of steady decline, the Christian share of the U.S. population appears to have stabilized. Since approximately 2019, the percentage of Americans identifying as Christians has held relatively steady, hovering between 60% and 64%. While this is significantly lower than the 78% recorded in 2007, the rapid slide seems to have slowed—at least for now.

This stabilization is particularly notable given how steep the previous decline had been. Between 2007 and 2019, Christianity in America experienced what could only be described as a free fall—dropping from 78% to the low 60s in just over a decade. The fact that this precipitous decline has leveled off gives us reason for cautious optimism.

When we look at denominational breakdowns, we see that Protestants remain the largest religious group in America at 40% of the population. The Catholic share has been remarkably steady over recent years, consistently measuring between 19% and 21% in surveys conducted since 2014. These numbers suggest that while Christianity’s overall cultural influence may have diminished, its core constituency remains substantial and stable.

But perhaps the most encouraging aspect of the research has nothing to do with religious identification at all. It concerns what Americans believe about spirituality, purpose, and the nature of existence—regardless of their religious affiliation.

Consider these findings:

• 86% of Americans believe people have a soul or spirit in addition to their physical body
• 83% believe in God or a universal spirit
• 70% believe in an afterlife (heaven, hell, or both)
• 79% believe there is something spiritual beyond the natural world

These numbers reveal something profound: despite declining religious participation, the vast majority of Americans maintain a spiritual worldview. They reject pure materialism in favor of a perspective that aligns, at least broadly, with the Christian understanding that we are more than just physical beings and that reality extends beyond what we can see and measure.

This means that when you engage with your neighbors about spiritual matters, you’re rarely starting from scratch. There’s often a foundation of belief already in place—an openness to spiritual reality that provides common ground for meaningful conversation.

Another piece of encouraging news concerns the youngest generation of adults. For years, each successive generation has appeared less religious than the one before it. However, the data suggests that Gen Z adults (those born between 2000-2006) show similar levels of religious identity and practice as Millennials. In other words, the generational decline in religious affiliation appears to have leveled off between these two generations.

This stabilization across the youngest adult cohorts suggests that perhaps the most dramatic shifts in America’s religious landscape may be behind us. While we shouldn’t expect a sudden reversal and return to previous levels of Christian identification, we might at least be entering a period of greater stability.

As we consider these encouraging signs, we should remember that every revival and spiritual awakening in history has occurred against a backdrop of significant challenges. The current plateau may represent not just the end of a decline, but the foundation for a new chapter in American Christianity—one that depends not on cultural favor or institutional strength, but on the faithful witness of believers who understand both the challenges and opportunities of our time.

The Bad News

While the stabilization of Christian identification is encouraging, we must be clear-eyed about the challenges we face. The reality is that despite this recent plateau, American Christianity has experienced a dramatic decline over the past two decades that cannot be overlooked.

Let’s consider the scope of this change: In 2007, 78% of Americans identified as Christian. Today, that number stands at 62%—representing a loss of 16 percentage points in less than twenty years. This is not a minor shift but a fundamental realignment of America’s religious landscape. The steepest part of this decline occurred between 2007 and 2019, with Christians dropping from 78% to the low 60s in about a decade.

Perhaps most concerning is the data on religious “switching”—people changing their religious identity between childhood and adulthood. For every one person who converts to Christianity, six people leave the faith. This 6-to-1 ratio represents a significant imbalance that, if continued, will inevitably lead to further decline. The Catholic Church faces an even more challenging ratio of 8.4-to-1.

The generational divide in religious affiliation is stark and suggests potential challenges ahead. While 80% of Americans ages 74 and older identify as Christian, that number drops to just 46% among adults ages 18-24. This means that among the youngest adult Americans, Christians have actually lost their majority status. Meanwhile, 43% of this age group identifies as religiously unaffiliated—nearly equal to the percentage who identify as Christian.

This generational pattern is troubling because it suggests that as older, more religious generations pass away, they will be replaced by younger, less religious cohorts. Even with the recent stabilization, this demographic reality could drive further declines in the years ahead unless something changes in the religious trajectories of younger Americans.

The “nones”—those who describe themselves as atheists, agnostics, or “nothing in particular” when asked about their religion—now constitute 29% of the American population. This makes them the second-largest religious category in America, behind Christians but ahead of all non-Christian religions combined. In 2007, this group represented just 16% of Americans, meaning their share has nearly doubled in less than two decades.

There’s also evidence that even among those who continue to identify as Christian, religious conviction has weakened. The percentage of Christians who say they pray daily has dropped from 58% in 2007 to 44% today. Similarly, the share of Christians who say they believe in God with absolute certainty has fallen from 80% in 2007 to 73% today. These statistics suggest that even among self-identified Christians, religious practice and certainty of belief are eroding.

The religious landscape also shows troubling signs regarding the transmission of faith to the next generation. Compared to older adults, today’s young adults are:

• Less likely to say they were raised in a religion (75% vs. 94% among the oldest adults)
• Less likely to have received formal religious education (19% received “a lot” vs. 50% of the oldest adults)
• More likely to have received no religious education at all (42% vs. 20%)

Perhaps most concerning is what researchers call the “stickiness” of religious upbringing. Among the oldest Americans (74+), about half of those raised in highly religious homes maintained high levels of religiosity into adulthood. Among the youngest adults (18-24), only 28% of those raised in highly religious homes maintained that high level of religious engagement. This suggests that religious upbringing is becoming less “sticky” with each generation, while secular upbringing is becoming more so.

These sobering statistics remind us that while the recent stabilization offers hope, we are ministering in a cultural context that is increasingly post-Christian. The America many of us grew up in—where Christian identity was the default and religious literacy was common—is rapidly receding into the past.

What It Means for Your Church

So what do we make of this complex picture? How should your church respond to these trends? Rather than seeing the data as simply discouraging or encouraging, I believe we should view it as clarifying—helping us understand the mission field we’re called to serve in 2025 and beyond.

Recognize the Opportunity

First, don’t miss the opportunity hidden in these statistics. While fewer Americans identify as Christian than in previous generations, the vast majority still maintain spiritual beliefs that align with a Christian worldview. The fact that 83% believe in God or a universal spirit, 86% believe in the soul, and 70% believe in an afterlife means the soil is still fertile for gospel conversations.

Remember that materialism—the view that physical matter is all that exists—remains a minority position in America. When you engage your neighbors, coworkers, or family members in spiritual conversations, you’re likely to find an openness to transcendent reality. This provides a crucial starting point for sharing the hope you have in Christ.

As one pastor noted, “We don’t need to convince most people that there’s something more to this life. They already believe that. We need to introduce them to the One who gives that something more.”

Focus on the Fundamentals

In times of cultural shift, there’s often a temptation to chase after the latest ministry trend, program, or gimmick. But the research suggests that what’s needed isn’t novelty but faithfulness to the fundamentals of Christian ministry:

1. Deep Discipleship: With fewer people receiving religious education in childhood, your church needs to emphasize biblical literacy and theological formation for all ages. This isn’t just about information but transformation—helping people develop a robust Christian worldview that can withstand secular challenges.

2. Authentic Prayer: Given the decline in prayer practices even among Christians, churches must create spaces for people to learn to pray and experience the power of prayer. This includes both corporate prayer in worship and equipping individuals for meaningful personal prayer lives.

3. Intentional Community: In an increasingly isolated culture, the church’s communal life stands as a powerful witness. Focus on building genuine relationships within your congregation that demonstrate the difference Christ makes in how we live together.

4. Mission Beyond the Walls: The data makes clear that simply waiting for people to find their way to church is no longer a viable strategy. Your congregation must move beyond the church walls to engage the community where people actually live, work, and gather.

As one church leader put it: “The fundamentals are fundamental for a reason. When we do them well—when we teach Scripture faithfully, pray fervently, love authentically, and go intentionally—we’re participating in God’s timeless strategy for building his church.”

Own Your Response

Perhaps the most important insight from this research is that the future of Christianity in America isn’t something that happens to us—it’s something that happens through us. These trends aren’t inevitable forces beyond our influence; they’re patterns that can be changed through faithful witness and Spirit-empowered ministry.

As one pastor emphasized: “This is not a ‘them’ problem. This is an ‘us’ problem.” The data isn’t about what’s happening to other churches or in other communities—it’s about your church, your community, your ministry.

The Great Commission wasn’t given with conditions attached. Jesus didn’t say, “Make disciples when the cultural trends are favorable” or “Teach people to obey everything I’ve commanded when your polling numbers are good.” The command to make disciples stands regardless of the religious climate.

Invest in the Next Generation

Given the striking generational differences in religious affiliation, churches must prioritize ministry to children, youth, and young adults. This means going beyond entertaining programs to fostering genuine spiritual formation that prepares young people to live as faithful witnesses in an increasingly secular culture.

The research shows that religious upbringing is becoming less “sticky,” meaning that even children raised in Christian homes are less likely to maintain their faith into adulthood. This underscores the need for churches to partner with parents in developing faith formation strategies that go deeper than mere religious activity.

As one youth pastor noted: “We’re not just trying to keep kids busy or entertained until they graduate. We’re equipping them to follow Jesus for a lifetime in a world that’s increasingly hostile to faith.”

Hope for Renewal

Finally, remember that the Christian story is filled with moments of apparent decline followed by unexpected revival. From the early church facing Roman persecution to renewal movements throughout church history, God has consistently defied human predictions of Christianity’s demise.

The current plateau in religious decline might represent not just a statistical blip but the foundation for genuine renewal. Perhaps we’re witnessing the purification of the church—a shift from cultural Christianity to a more committed, convicted faith community.

As Jesus taught, the kingdom of God often begins like a mustard seed—small and seemingly insignificant—but grows to become larger than anyone expected (Matthew 13:31-32). Your faithful ministry today, even if it seems small in the face of national trends, may be precisely the seed God is planting for future growth.

Final Thoughts

The Pew Research findings present us with both challenge and hope. The decline in Christian affiliation over recent decades is real and significant. Yet the recent stabilization and the enduring spiritual openness of most Americans remind us that the story isn’t finished.

These statistics don’t determine your church’s future—they simply describe the mission field in which we’re called to serve. The data is not destiny. Throughout history, God has worked through faithful communities to spark revival and renewal when circumstances seemed most dark.

Your church stands at a crucial moment. Will you be discouraged by the trends of the past, or will you see the opportunity before you? Will you retreat into comfortable patterns, or will you engage your community with renewed passion and purpose?

Remember that the church Jesus promised to build has faced far greater challenges than declining poll numbers. From the catacombs of Rome to the house churches of China, authentic Christian faith has thrived even when cultural support evaporated.

The path forward isn’t found in clever strategies or cultural accommodation but in a renewed commitment to the timeless mission Christ gave us: making disciples who love God, love others, and bear witness to the transforming power of the gospel.

As you lead your congregation through these challenging times, take heart in knowing that the One who called you remains faithful. “And surely I am with you always,” Jesus promised, “to the very end of the age” (Matthew 28:20).

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Episode Transcript:

A.J. Mathieu [00:00:00]:
Christianity in America. Is the decline over? Find out right now on the Church Revitalization Podcast.

Scott Ball [00:00:06]:
Hello, and welcome to the Church Revitalization Podcast, brought to you by the Malthus Group team, where each week we tackle important, actionable topics to help churches thrive. And now here’s your hosts, Scott Ball and A.J. Mathieu. Welcome to the Church Revitalization Podcast. My name is Scott Ball. I’m joined by my friend and cohost, A.J. Mathieu. A.J., we’ve got some new news. We we occasionally, do an episode like this where we see something come across the wire. This is not exactly a breaking news program where we do, we don’t do the news.

A.J. Mathieu [00:00:46]:
But I lost the teletype just now.

Scott Ball [00:00:48]:
Hey. You see? Hang on. Hang on. I got it got it right off the wire. Okay. But I did see this, article come across the the airwaves last week. As we’re recording it, it was last week. So there’s a little bit of a tell for when we’re recording this.

Scott Ball [00:01:06]:
But, I thought this is good. This is a good thing for us to talk about when there’s a big update, I think a big, data dump on what are we learning about Christianity is particularly in The US. It’s it’s worth us chatting about because this is our bread and butter. This is our business. This is what we we work in every day is church decline, church growth, church stabilization, church plateaus. So when we see a big study on this, we definitely wanna talk about it. Apologies, I guess, to our international listeners, and there’s lots and lots of you. But there, I think, are still some practical things for us to to glean from this, especially towards the end of today’s episodes.

Scott Ball [00:01:47]:
With that, do we wanna just dive into the data? We’re gonna break it down this way. We’re gonna we’re gonna talk about the good news from this data. Just a spoiler alert, there’s some bad news, as well, and then we’ll kinda wrap up by talking about what is this what does this mean for your church? What what does it matter anyway for you?

A.J. Mathieu [00:02:05]:
So Okay. So let’s do it.

Scott Ball [00:02:08]:
We’ll start

A.J. Mathieu [00:02:08]:
with the good. Let’s start with the less bad news. The good

Scott Ball [00:02:11]:
Less bad news.

A.J. Mathieu [00:02:12]:
Is relative. Good is relative. Yeah. Relative to bad, this is good. And that is that the this relatively steady decline in the American church has seemingly come to a bit of a plateau or a slowdown. So it’s kind of flattening out a little bit in recent years.

Scott Ball [00:02:30]:
Well, yeah, I mean, I think that that’s actually what caught my attention at least is that a lot of the headlines from news organizations were headlines like US Christianity stabilizing after decades of decline. I mean, like, this seemed like top line. Wow. Good news. The work that we’re doing with churches is working, you know, and lots of people, not just us, but there are a lot of organizations working on this problem. And so it caught my attention. But, of course, you know, well, let’s just stick with the good news for now. It’s it’s

A.J. Mathieu [00:03:08]:
Yeah. So I guess it’s going back to about 2019. There’s been sort of a stabilization. So after a decade, two decade plus, you know, fairly steep decline, it’s faster decline than in previous decades in the twentieth century. The church has now been hovering, or Christianity in The US has been hovering in the, like, the lower 60% range, 60 to 64% of people identifying as Christians. Now we’ll get more into the bad news of of what that percentage has looked like in the past, but so the I guess that’s kind of the headline right there, is that it was kind of steep on the decline for the last five years or so. It kinda hasn’t continued on that trend line. So, yeah.

A.J. Mathieu [00:03:56]:
So I guess that that is our celebratory headline is the slowdown in church decline.

Scott Ball [00:04:01]:
It’s something. You know? I think every turnaround starts with a leveling off. So if you wanna think of it that way, that’s good. I think, anecdotally, we use the arda, t h e a r d a, dot com. And that’s the Association of Religious Data Archives, I think, is what ARDA stands for. You can go you can go yourself, listener, and go to the arda.com and do some research on your local, area and get some information on religious engagement in your ZIP code or in your county. And anecdotal I mean, they just updated this recently, A.J.. I wanna say within the last twelve or eighteen months with 2020 data.

Scott Ball [00:04:56]:
So that’s the newest data. It’s just updated with the census. So, you know, you you you get it in 2010, and we got it in 2020. We won’t get another one till 2030. But the 2020 numbers on a lot of places where I have looked and done run reports for churches that I’ve worked with, shockingly, you know, I always told churches prior to 2020, hey. I bet when we get these numbers for 2020, they’re gonna be worse than they are right now. And I guess in some places, that’s true, but in a lot of places, it’s not. A lot of places, the numbers are relatively close, 2020 to 2010, maybe even some slight improvement or just very marginal small declines.

Scott Ball [00:05:37]:
And so that’s anecdotal because I I have not gone through and looked at every county in The United States. But, those are real numbers. It’s not just like, you know, a survey like like Pew is doing. These are actual raw data numbers that we’re getting at the county level. And there does this seems to bear out that idea that maybe there is a a leveling off, not necessarily a growth, but a leveling off of of, church engagement, which is something.

A.J. Mathieu [00:06:08]:
Yeah. It is. I mean, for sure. Yeah. So, you know, there there’s various reasons for that, you know, it but it largely breaks down into I mean, the decline in in the first place, and we’ll get more into the bad news here in a moment, is generational. So, you know, there’s and most of you know that, there’s an old our oldest generation are more inclined into the church, and our younger generations are less inclined into the church. And so we have a population shift happening as, you know, our current oldest generation begins to go see Jesus in person, and the younger generation is not necessarily filling that that void, at the same population rates. Yeah.

A.J. Mathieu [00:06:53]:
That’s that’s primarily it. And I guess some other to frame this up as well, that we’re saying, you know, Christianity is around in the low sixties, 62 ish percent or so right now. 40% of that is, Protestant identification, about 20% Catholic, and then kind of everybody else, fits into that last 20%. I don’t think anybody has, any other group had Two

Scott Ball [00:07:22]:
or 3%. Forty % plus 19%, fifty nine %, and we’re at 62% total. So there’s the 3% is gonna be less mainstream versions of Christianity.

A.J. Mathieu [00:07:35]:
Yeah. Yeah. And then non believers. Yeah. Right.

Scott Ball [00:07:39]:
Take Oh, you mean the remaining 40% of people. Yeah. Yeah. There’s, yeah, there’s there’s atheists in there, agnostics, non religious people, and and then all the other every other religion.

A.J. Mathieu [00:07:54]:
Yeah. Exactly. Yep. So, yeah, in The US, Protestants, are the are the majority religious group. And, I

Scott Ball [00:08:02]:
think, technically, a plurality. Right? You’re 40%, you’re not a majority. But if you’re the largest group, you’re a plurality. Is that correct?

A.J. Mathieu [00:08:12]:
Yeah. I guess I was saying

Scott Ball [00:08:13]:
Not to be ticky tacky.

A.J. Mathieu [00:08:15]:
The majority of those counted within this group of religious people.

Scott Ball [00:08:22]:
Oh, okay. Out of a % of people who

A.J. Mathieu [00:08:25]:
claim to be religious, Protestants are the majority.

Scott Ball [00:08:29]:
Okay. Alright. Fair enough. Alright. Fair enough.

A.J. Mathieu [00:08:32]:
This is why we’re not in the research business.

Scott Ball [00:08:37]:
I think we’re just talking about out of The US population.

A.J. Mathieu [00:08:40]:
No. No. No. No. No.

Scott Ball [00:08:41]:
Yeah. Protestants still are the largest religious group or irreligious group, but they’re a plurality. They’re not they’re not a majority.

A.J. Mathieu [00:08:52]:
Yeah. Okay. So so there’s the good news. We’ve got a perhaps a plot What I tell you

Scott Ball [00:08:56]:
before you hey. Before you move on from the good news

A.J. Mathieu [00:08:59]:
You got another good piece of good news?

Scott Ball [00:09:00]:
Well, I mean, I think because this sets up for our last piece, like, why like, there’s still other good news. So even if you’re we look at the top line number still, you know, it’s 62% or identify as Christians, forty percent identify as Protestant, and then that has largely stabilized. That’s good news. But beyond that, 86% of Americans believe in a soul. So there’s only 14% of people who are like, no. I’m pretty sure we’re just we’re just dirt and dust, and, you know, when we die, we’re nothing. Like, that that’s pretty good. 83% believe in a god of some kind, like, that there’s some power bigger than themselves.

Scott Ball [00:09:46]:
So that’s that’s a that’s a lot. And 70% believe that there is some sort of an afterlife, that that this this world isn’t all that there is, that there’s something else past us. I mean, to me, those are very encouraging numbers. Like, we can do something with that. You know, maybe when you encounter someone, you can assume that three out of every 10 people you meet are actively attending a church on a regular basis at best. That’s not good news, but seven out of 10 of people that you meet have some sort of sense that there is something more than this life. So there’s a huge opportunity there. Most people are they’re not gonna be shut off to talking about spiritual things.

Scott Ball [00:10:34]:
There’s an openness to the gospel that’s there. To me, that’s good news. Like, that’s I think that’s pretty good news. It’s

A.J. Mathieu [00:10:42]:
it should be encouraging. Yeah. I mean, because I think so often, especially those that work in the church, you know, you can just kinda get beat down, feeling like you’re not making progress. Things are you know, may even feel hopeless. And so I think, yeah, getting getting some of these numbers sometimes can can remind us that, oh, there is opportunity

Scott Ball [00:11:04]:
out there. Yeah. Yeah. Not only that, but, I mean, I think you you turn on the TV or, you know, scroll on social media. And I think that those those voices that say, hey. All there is this materialistic perspective is so loud in the culture and in, you know, and in media, it it makes it seem like that’s a majority perspective when in fact, materialism is not the majority perspective. It’s a minority perspective. And so we think we have to be combating a materialistic and by that, I mean, a materialist view of of cosmology, that all there is is what we can see and what we can measure.

Scott Ball [00:11:55]:
That is not the majority position. It’s a minority position. Most people think that there’s more to this life and more to existence and more to reality than what you can see with your eyes and what you can measure, you know, with a microscope or something. So that’s good news. Like, we we maybe need to just take a step back and think that’s not the argument we need to be making. Like, the argument we need to be making is about the truth of Jesus Christ and, you know, you know what I’m saying? Like, our starting position with with someone who’s outside the faith doesn’t need to be convincing them that there’s something more, you know, that they have a soul. Like, that their odds are they already think that. So we don’t need to start there.

A.J. Mathieu [00:12:38]:
The the harvest is plentiful. Right?

Scott Ball [00:12:40]:
Yeah. Yeah.

A.J. Mathieu [00:12:41]:
That’s right. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Alright. A little bit of bad news before we talk about, what it means to us and what to do about it. Yeah. I mean, the previous decline that we were under was relatively steep.

A.J. Mathieu [00:12:54]:
So we had 78% identified. Remember, we’re now we’re low sixties. We had 78% identifying as Christian in 02/2007. Is that right? Yeah. Then we fell to about seventy one percent seven years later in 2014. And now here we are ten years later, a full 10% down again. So, well, now actually, so let me rephrase that because, really, the stabilization started around 2019. So we dropped about 10% again in maybe only five years or so before, you know, riding this plus or minus 2%, stabilization.

A.J. Mathieu [00:13:35]:
That’s a fair point.

Scott Ball [00:13:36]:
It was a it was a really steep drop, say, like, during the when when did you say the stabilization started? About 2019?

A.J. Mathieu [00:13:43]:
Twenty ’19.

Scott Ball [00:13:45]:
Yeah. Yeah. So so think from the from the Obama presidency through Trump’s first term, it was it was a cliff. And then and things have more or less stabilized since then. Just to give like, I think when we hear these dates, we we’re, like, losing context of society history time. Just Just go Yeah. Okay.

A.J. Mathieu [00:14:10]:
We’re not drawing a political correlation to the numbers. No. No. No. No. No.

Scott Ball [00:14:13]:
I’m just trying to, like, think think about how short of a time frame that is, you know, depending on how old you are. That’s that’s the that’s a blink. You know? Like, okay. Well, I feel like Bush was just president five seconds ago. You know? So from from the end of his presidency, really, through the, you know, the end of twenty nineteen, we lost 16% of of of the of the stakes. But in the time since, it stabilized, so that’s good news. We didn’t continue that steep cliff.

A.J. Mathieu [00:14:42]:
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

Scott Ball [00:14:43]:
It’s not a political point. I just think it’s helpful to kinda see those markers and go, alright. Get a our our awareness of time scale here.

A.J. Mathieu [00:14:50]:
Yeah. Right. So, the religious nones, those not identifying, with religion have plateaued at about 29%, but that’s higher than 20 2,007, where that was a 16% group of people. So, yeah. I mean, the bad news is, though we’re stable right now I mean, just kind of long story short, though we’re seemingly stable right now, we’ve lost a huge chunk of people identifying with Jesus in the last twenty five years, twenty years. Yeah.

Scott Ball [00:15:26]:
Well, I think that’s a good point to to bring up, going back to how we’re not, data scientists, but here, but if if Protestants are the largest religious group in The United States at 40%, I, am just looking doing some quick maths in my head here. That would mean that the second largest religious group in The United States are are the religious nones. So, the n o n e s, not n u n. So at 29. So the second largest religious group are people who are not religious. Now there’s a lot of types of people who fit. That doesn’t mean those not all of those people are atheists. There’s people who are agnostic, or they are people who they just don’t they don’t identify with anything in particular.

Scott Ball [00:16:17]:
So, again, going back to that the good news number, included in that group are a lot of people who believe that there’s something, but they just don’t know what that thing is. So but that’s a big number, A.J.. Twenty nine percent of almost a third of people that you encounter, in your day to day life don’t identify as anything at all.

A.J. Mathieu [00:16:40]:
Yeah. Right. So these young adults, are split basically fifty fifty. Like, half of them less slightly less than half identify as Christian and slightly less than half identify, as unaffiliated. So now you compare that to

Scott Ball [00:16:57]:
Say that one more time?

A.J. Mathieu [00:16:58]:
Less than

Scott Ball [00:16:59]:
For me because I’m stupid. Yeah. Well,

A.J. Mathieu [00:17:01]:
yeah, less than 50% of young adults identify as Christian. That number is, I think, 46. And we’ve also got 43% that do not are religiously unaffiliated. So

Scott Ball [00:17:15]:
Okay.

A.J. Mathieu [00:17:16]:
Yeah. So

Scott Ball [00:17:16]:
about the same. It’s like about It’s about the same,

A.J. Mathieu [00:17:19]:
and neither one is over 50%. You know? They’re both

Scott Ball [00:17:21]:
And I’m guessing the remainder is something other than Christian.

A.J. Mathieu [00:17:25]:
Like Yeah. I’m not sure what the

Scott Ball [00:17:26]:
Muslim or Buddhist or something.

A.J. Mathieu [00:17:28]:
Yeah. So, yeah, so here we go. 46% of young adults identifying as Christian compared to 8080% of our oldest adults.

Scott Ball [00:17:39]:
So

A.J. Mathieu [00:17:40]:
huge delta between our oldest generation and our younger youngest adult generation, identifying as Christians. So, you know, it’s somewhere I don’t, you know, I don’t know what that looks like for the various other, demographic age groups. You know, we, Gen Xers, you, Millennials, we’re kinda showing the end the two ends here, and I’m not sure what’s happening in the middle right now, but, likely, it’s just kinda following the trend line down.

Scott Ball [00:18:15]:
Yeah. That’s a good point. And I I think one of the scarier aspects of this or that’s implied is that our, or the decline may just be on pause, you know, as that that oldest generation continues to pass pass away. If we don’t get that number up of young people, then that that decline. We’ve all we’ve done is stop the bleeding. Like, we we aren’t continuing to lose at a rapid pace. I do think there was some information here. I don’t not sure if this has made it into our our kinda quick notes, A.J., but I feel like I noticed somewhere in this study from Pew that, the Gen z kids are not more irreligious than millennials, if that makes Okay.

Scott Ball [00:19:16]:
Does that make sense?

A.J. Mathieu [00:19:18]:
But less practicing must be the case.

Scott Ball [00:19:23]:
I I don’t I’m not sure that that’s true. I’m not sure. But they’re no. I’m pretty sure that the rates of I I found this was somewhere in in in p in the research, but I believe that the numbers were pretty close between Gen z and millennials. Meaning that while if you look generationally, there are declines from generation to generation that that also seems to have leveled off. So, when you look at when you look at millennials and you look at Gen z, it’s even. It isn’t like there’s a further decline from millennials to Gen z. It’s it’s that’s a straight line, which is a good sign that you’re going, alright.

Scott Ball [00:20:09]:
Well, at least the the the youngest generation is not even more irreligious than than the millennial group. It’s they’re about the same level, which

A.J. Mathieu [00:20:18]:
is Okay.

Scott Ball [00:20:21]:
Something good.

A.J. Mathieu [00:20:22]:
Yeah. There is, some additional data in here that does support, the increasing secularization of those that are that are, as what they call it, religious switching. So this is kind of an alarming number, though. Six we have six people leaving Christianity for every one that’s coming in as a new convert. So, that that kinda brings it home right there, I think. You know? Especially, you can internalize this with your own anecdotal or hard data that you see in your church. You know? I mean, how many how many baptisms are you seeing in your church or, you know, or know of, people that are coming into a relationship with Jesus that you’re able to, you know, hear about or track count? Because there’s, I guess, that could be a depressing stat right there. Like, wow.

A.J. Mathieu [00:21:18]:
We won one, which is a huge celebration on Earth and in heaven, and then there’s six others that have walked away from the faith.

Scott Ball [00:21:28]:
Yeah. So Yeah. It’s sad. I I think, you know, your your religious, your your theological perspective may vary on is there such a thing as a former Christian?

A.J. Mathieu [00:21:40]:
Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Scott Ball [00:21:42]:
But at least their identification with with with Christianity. And the the data also says that even for people who are associated with Christianity or call themselves Christian, their faith is shakier. So, fewer Christians today say they believe in God with absolute certainty compared to previous generations. So people get a little get a little nervous. They get a little antsy. They they’re not quite so sure. And so there’s work to be done there as well in in discipleship and helping people to learn the truth and know the truth and, to to stand firm on the word of God and in the person of Jesus and the life his life, death, and resurrection. So, there’s work to be done in discipleship even within our churches with people who are connected, so that we can prevent that falling away, that happens from people who, you know, as Jesus says, those are seed on the rocky ground, you know, or seed that falls into into the the thorny ground.

Scott Ball [00:22:45]:
You know, you don’t want people to have not have that lasting roots or to get choked out by by the worries of the world. So okay. So we’ve covered some good news. Things are at least plateaued. I don’t think we could say they’re turning around, but they have leveled off. That’s good news. Some bad news. Most of the majority of the Christians are still old folks.

Scott Ball [00:23:08]:
And when they pass away, we’re probably gonna see the data reflect that. So what does this mean for the listening public? What do they need to do?

A.J. Mathieu [00:23:20]:
Well, I think you first you first need to internalize this as opportunity.

Scott Ball [00:23:26]:
Mhmm.

A.J. Mathieu [00:23:27]:
There is like, I well, I said it a minute ago. The the harvest is plentiful. I mean, the it the world still needs Jesus, and you’re still in a position to affect that change. Now is not the time for us to relax, and to think, oh, we’re doing okay. We can take a little break. The Bible speaks of rest. God rested. I don’t think, we’re ever on vacation from the Great Commission.

A.J. Mathieu [00:23:56]:
And so, the church needs to continue to be on offense. And, in making contact with these with these folks, especially those that are most inclined to to the truth that we have to offer, to the life that we have to offer through Jesus. So, the yeah. There’s some strategy that needs to be employed in the church. We can get more into those details. Scott, I’ll let you, have have a word in here on, what does this mean for the church?

Scott Ball [00:24:27]:
I mean, we we talk about this relentlessly on the podcast, and so I know some of you are gonna go, wow. They’re saying the same thing again. But I I I can’t emphasize this enough. The fundamental things are fundamental. You know, the doing the the fundamental things well is still the best way to play the game. So and I you know I love football, A.J., and I know you don’t care. But I’m telling you, it’s the teams that win are are okay. Did you watch the Super Bowl this year? Did you watch the Super Bowl? Okay.

Scott Ball [00:25:06]:
I I I thought it was interesting because, you know, the Chiefs lost, and they lost badly to the to the Eagles. And, there are lots of reasons, I think, why they lost, but, my least and I and I don’t like the Eagle. I’m a Cowboys fan through and through, and so watching I mean, I was kind of rooting for no one in that game. But watching the Eagles win is especially painful. One of the things I hate that they do have you ever heard them do this, they do this the tush push, the, the brotherly shove. Have you heard of this?

A.J. Mathieu [00:25:40]:
No. Not familiar.

Scott Ball [00:25:41]:
So what they do is they they get their quarterback lined up under center, and this is when they have, like, half a yard to go or a yard to go. And they they give him they hike him the ball, and then the whole team essentially just pushes him forward a yard. And no one can stop the thing. No. No. There isn’t a team in the NFL that has figured out how to stop the brotherly shove. And it is just, and I it just pains me. And other teams have tried to duplicate it, and they can’t.

Scott Ball [00:26:18]:
Like, no one can do this the way that they can, and it pains me as a Cowboys fan. But the reason why it’s so successful, I think, and I’m not an expert, and someone who is, like, a football expert is probably gonna criticize me for saying this, but it’s just a masterful use of blocking and angling. And, like, it’s taking all the fundamental things about football, distilling them into their finest form, especially as it relates to the run game, and then and then, like, condensing it into this shot of of a play that that works a % of the time virtually. And here’s my point. Purchase think. We we gotta come up with some angle. We gotta come up with some trick. We gotta come up with some marketing ploy.

Scott Ball [00:27:08]:
We gotta come up with some new ministry. We gotta come up with something extravagant and flashy and neat, and I’m just telling you that’s not true. You have to do the fundamental things really, really well. Are we discipling our people towards Jesus? Are we teaching people to know and understand the scripture? Not do you think you’re doing that. Are you actually doing that? Are we teaching people to pray? And one of the fundamental things is, are we getting outside the four walls of our church and transforming our city? If you’re just wholly huddling and you never actually line up on the line and and go for it and do the bro brotherly shove your way across the line of scrimmage and gain some yards, and if you’re never doing that, you’re just huddling and you’re talking about the plays we’re gonna run and the things we’re gonna do, it’ll never happen. You gotta line up, and you gotta brotherly shove your way forward. And, that’s what this means. But the good news, I think with this, A.J., is that the opportunity is there.

Scott Ball [00:28:18]:
I think there are some churches that they continue to huddle because they think it doesn’t matter. They think there’s nothing we can do, the culture doesn’t wanna hear it. And the data doesn’t tell us that. The data tells us that the people wanna hear, they want to hear the truth, but they wanna see you live the truth. And so we gotta we gotta do that. So that’s that’s what I think this means.

A.J. Mathieu [00:28:40]:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, just last week on the podcast, we talked about, the revitalization through outreach and, in the church getting outside the walls. Let me let me I don’t know. I feel like I’m might need to point out the obvious here. But if you’re listening to us, you’re you’re you know, you’ve clicked the link in this week’s article and you’re reading over the Pew Research, I feel like some people can look at this and and separate ourselves from it. Like, this is data about the rest of the church. Brother, sister, if you count yourself as one with, with the Lord Jesus, this is us.

A.J. Mathieu [00:29:20]:
This is our data. This isn’t someone else’s data. Mhmm. Affecting change within the data is changing your own behavior. This is not hoping other people will do something differently. This is you needing to do something differently. You know, I mean, the the old false quote of Einstein that, you know, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results, is true. You know? I mean, I don’t think Einstein ever said that, and that’s not the true definition of insanity.

A.J. Mathieu [00:29:51]:
But if you want if you want the data points in this, you know, to be different the next time Pew, runs these surveys, you have to change something that you’re doing today. We all do. This is this lays on all our shoulders. This is not a them problem. This is an Us problem.

Scott Ball [00:30:12]:
Mhmm. Yeah. I couldn’t have said it better myself. I think it is so important for us to own you can’t own the whole problem, but you can own your problem. And and, recognizing that there’s no turnaround without your church turning around. And and it and it is possible, by the way. I mean, I think that’s the I mean, that’s the that’s why we why are we doing this podcast? Why why does our organization exist? Why did we create the Healthy Churches toolkit? Why do I why do I travel all across this country? And, Ajay, you travel all around the world, and we got a team of guides to do this work. Why are we doing all this? If it’s it’s not a money grab, because I promise you, we can show you our bank accounts.

Scott Ball [00:30:56]:
There’s there’s there’s not money to be made in this. Okay? We do this because it’s important and because it works, because your church really can turn around, because your church really can go a different way, because your church really can make an impact in your community, because one healthy church does spread to other churches and they go, look at what they did. We we can do this too. It’s not it’s not deterministic. This data is not deterministic. The trend has slowed great, but it hasn’t reversed, and it won’t, unless you own the problem in your community, in your church, and it can change and it can be better. And we’d love to help you with that, but it starts with taking a step and going, this could be different.

A.J. Mathieu [00:31:48]:
Yeah. That’s right. There is no there is no Christian victimhood in the great commission. There’s no when when conditions are favorable, go and make disciples. You know, when the trend lines are looking pretty good, like a generation is open, go make disciples. It’s every day all day. And and it Jesus has has one one way of doing this. There’s not a plan b.

A.J. Mathieu [00:32:12]:
There is this is my church, you know? And and this is what the church will accomplish. It’ll accomplish, people becoming in right relationship with God through through his son and his death, burial, and resurrection. We all need to get get after this and and quit fooling around. There’s work to be done. Time is ticking. And there are people that that need to find this this life change and transformation, in this life in the next. So let’s let’s get busy. Let’s

Scott Ball [00:32:48]:
Yeah. Amen. Amen. Alright. Well, hey. The show notes for today are are down there in the description, whether you’re watching on YouTube or you’re listening on the podcast platform of your choice. There, the link to the show notes is down in the description. And, we we we would be remiss if we didn’t encourage you to go and check out healthychurchestoolkit.com.

Scott Ball [00:33:10]:
Get seven days for free of that. And, if you are a church outside of The United States, you get access to those materials at no cost. And if you are inside The United States, you should know that when you purchase a subscription to the Healthy Churches Toolkit, you’re supporting a church around the world that doesn’t have the same kind of resources that you do, and we wanna thank you. Thank you for being a subscriber to that, and blessing another church while at the same time you’re resourcing and equipping your own church for for health and for growth. So, go to healthychurchestoolkit.com and get seven days for free, and, take advantage of all the resources that are in there that really will help you go on offense as a church.

A.J. Mathieu [00:33:47]:
Amen. Let’s work together. Let’s, let’s see the kingdom of God increase and celebrate when the next, bit of research comes out with an upward trend line. Go get them.

Scott Ball [00:33:56]:
Oh. Looking forward to it. Alright. Bye.